Need help /raided and computers seized

[weirdharold]

I won't want a whiphouse next door to mine. I don't want my children exposed to it, and I don't think that an commercial (receiving clinets) adult business should operate in a residential neighborhood.

So your rights out weigh all others? Now that is the point here, isn't it? If you don't think it is right then it is wrong! Seems to me you are forgetting that you have neighbors that would feel the same way if they knew you to be a pronographer. Does that make them right?

[webwoman]

Update...The free speech coalition has set me up with a first amendment attorney
in my area. Our appointment is on Monday at 4pm. people from the bdsm community are getting together and coming to my aid to help fight this raid. We are going to get the information we need and what the retainer will be to solve this case.
I'm and always will be upfront and helpful to all who seek help. I don't condemn people who speak their mind nor do I think your opinions are my business. You have that right.
This is about protecting all adult industry workers down the line. What you do to me will one day be you if this is not stopped now. It is because people like us who fight for the rights of all types of industry we have a chance.
If we sub divide from each other we lose the fight completely because we now are not fighting the officials who are trying to end the adult industry. We are fighting against each other just like they want us to. When this happens it allows them to continue to take steps to enforce yet another way to discredit all of us.
Yes, I built a site and yes its fetish not porn, But I also live the bdsm lifestyle and it is separate from my site. My freedom was violated because its not the norm.
I also think that if you were in the bdsm lifestyle you would understand the donation aspect and why we do that. Don't accuse me of selling sex because it is not even in the mix. My websites are more risky than my life. Because that is what the Internet craves. Do you want your private life put out for all to see. Rights are for all not just you and your adult business, Our familles would not want to live next door to a vanilla sex site either because its not what we believe. But I work in more than one type of business just like you...lifestyle is not the same as a website.Alot is acting and modeling to make money just like you.
Remember when you put my content up you thought that it was fine.
I did not come here to cry or anything like that. I came to say I will fight because I'm right. And all my records and zoning and what I do is in order ... They were hoping it was not. No arrest and no charges we made. But they looked puzzled by the proof that came from them in the first place..The town approved my business the court while in bankruptcy officially made it a priority to make me prove every aspect of my business before they issued me the right to declare my income as legitimate.
I had to document and take pictures of everything and submit it to the judge and as far as taxes every penny goes into my business account that the trustee monitors to ensure my income stays intack.I cant fool or hide anything from them. They have made me do all the paperwork necessary to stay up to date on my payments.
The town when they discovered this on Wednesday was shocked that they did not research me a lot better than they did. BECAUSE what this comes down to is the fact that they told me it was O.K.. It is all in writing. From them.
that's why the free speech coalition is willing to take my case.
I may have been raided but I will not be violated.
still dont know the real reason becase no search warrant was shown to us.
another reason why i seek help. Its our right to see one.

[furrygirl]

Originally Posted by webwoman

If we sub divide from each other we lose the fight completely because we now are not fighting the officials who are trying to end the adult industry. We are fighting against each other just like they want us to. When this happens it allows them to continue to take steps to enforce yet another way to discredit all of us.

...

Our familles would not want to live next door to a vanilla sex site either because its not what we believe.

Webwoman, I'm as much "on your side" as anyone here has been, but I didn't like this post one bit. You can't call for pervert solidarity and ask that we not infight in the face of government harassment, and then cast a stone at people who run "vanilla sex sites". It doesn't help anything to turn around the, "I don't want to live next to you, you're a weirdo!" argument on others.

[RawAlex]

harold, the difference being that I don't have a stream of paying customers coming through my front door, parking on people's lawns and coming in wearing nothing but a leather hood. What I do PERSONALLY inside my house is what I do inside my house. I don't make it the neighbor's business, nor do I care what they do at home (although one of my neighbors just got a new Mac, so I am sure they are an artist type!). Just in the same way I feel she should have the right to run an adult business, I think that her neighbor's have the right to a peaceful residential neighborhood safe for children. The rights of the many (her neighbors) outweigh in my mind the rights of the few (her) to run her commercial adult business from her house. If I was running a commercial porn studio out of my house, performers, crews, and whatnot going in and out at all hours, I would expect my neighbors to be upset. That I sit in front of a computer for 12 hours a day alone doing what I do isn't changing their lives one bit, so there you go. (and as a side note, the sales rep for the builder that sold me the house was very much aware of what I did for a living... and asked for passwords and urls to check out some hot stuff... so go figure!)

Hammer, I am not against prostitution, far from it. If a girl (or guy) wants to make a living selling themselves for sex, well, so be it. As long as they play safe, stay clean, and don't hurt anyone, who gives a rat's ass? The problem is that society as a whole (for the moment) has declared prostitution illegal (except in most Nevada counties), and that isn't something I can change. Would you honestly be happy to have a whorehouse or bondage and whip club next to your home, with your kids playing in the lawn looking over at the "johns" wanding in and out of the business next door? NIMBY. You don't mind the idea, but you wouldn't want it in your back yard.

Didn't you read closely? She registered her home business as a photo studio. She didn't mention to the city that it was adult oriented. "oops". (...and no, I don't have to obtain a permit from the city that I live in for a home business unless I receive clients at the place of business).

Common sense says that sooner or later, the neighbors would complain.

Alex

[Hammer]

Just out of curiousity Alex, but where do you think that the majority of the content on the sites that you link to on this site http://www.findpics.net/ is shot? You don't seriously believe it's all shot in a studio in a commercial district somewhere do you? So, you are willing to profit from it, as long as it isn't produced in the house next door to yours, but it's okay if it's produced in the house next door to me?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Just out of curiousity Alex, but where do you think that the majority of the content on the sites that you link to on this site http://www.findpics.net/ is shot? You don't seriously believe it's all shot in a studio in a commercial district somewhere do you? So, you are willing to profit from it, as long as it isn't produced in the house next door to yours, but it's okay if it's produced in the house next door to me?

Hammer, I am under not legal obligation to confirm the locations that content is shot. It could be in fact shot in a kindergarten classroom for that matter, it isn't important, now is it? I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make a difference. All I want to know is that there are model releases for the people and the models are all of legal ages, and that no children were present or witnessed it being made. The rest is the responsiblity of the people who produce it.

Nor is that an issue here.

I don't care that she does bondage. I don't care that she runs a website. I am concerned that she is running a commercial adult business in a residential neighborhood, and I am concerned that she is soliciting for sexual acts on her website, two things that reflect badly on the industry as a whole.

I also express concern that if she is fast and loose with the laws of zoning and solicitation, might she also not be just slightly loose with the rules for 2257 and model releases? When doubt is raised in one area, the rest should be looked at too.

The police didn't come to her house without a warrant, so they surely have something to work from. Is it valid? Will it stick? Will they use it to bootstrap up some other case against her? I don't know, and neither do you. We can only go by what we have in front of us.

Alex

[Bill]

It would be interesting to hear more from other fetish sponsors and members of the bdsm community about this.

Is this a relatively common practice?

I know there is a fairly large (relatively speaking) underground business in femdom prostitution - a relatively safe and hi profit part of the sex worker biz, from what I understand.

Alex, all your points are good.

I was just trying to say we all have some reason to fear the fervor and prejudices of local law enforcement. In many ways, the smaller you are, the more likely you are to be harassed.

[RawAlex]

Oh, and if my neighbors are shooting porn, well, I don't care... as long as they don't have a flow of people going in and out the door day and night to do it.

Alex

[MeatPounder]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Oh, and if my neighbors are shooting porn, well, I don't care... as long as they don't have a flow of people going in and out the door day and night to do it.

Alex

They willing to license the content?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by MeatPounder

They willing to license the content?

No, they won't license it... it's all exclusive!

[Hammer]

Do you seriously believe she is so busy that she has a steady flow of clients coming and going all day and night? Certianly you realize she and her clients would also be discreet and no one is walking into her house wearing a leather mask.

[RawAlex]

Hammer, think for a minute. If your neighbor had, I don't know... 3 different people per day come to their door, parking in front of your house each time, would you not start to wonder a little bit?

Would you not wonder if they showed up at all house of the day or night (many of these people are "night" people)?

I don't deny here rights to do what she does... but a little common sense and a little time with a good lawyer could likely have kept any of this from happening.

We all have opinions. That's cool.

Alex

[weirdharold]

Alex, after rereading my last post to you, let me state that I did not mean for it to appear as a personal attack on you..... and am thankful you didn't respond as if it was.

I do have to agree that something smells very fishy about what little we know about this situation...

one: according to webwoman.. the investigators claimed to have come with warrant in hand, but refused to produce it upon request (which it should not have been neccessary to request it... should have been the first thing they did upon contact... hand it over) which smells pretty bad in itself.

two: the guy (that brought you to the conclusion that she has traffic flowing through her residence) walking up through the cops *money in hand* speaking out asking for his spanking. What kind of person would do this with cops all over the place? I know a lot of rather Hmmmm... how do I say crazy fu**ers, and for the life of me I don't think even the craziest would walk through cops to pay to get a spanking. So that smell a heap of rotten fish to me....

I do not trust the law enforcement community... they lie, cheat, and break laws... in the name of upholding the law..... They are sworn to up hold the law ... so to me their lying, cheating, and most of all BREAKING THE LAW makes them worse than the lowest snake in the grass.

Being a Libertarian, I basically believe a person has the right to do anything they want to do... as long as it does not interfere with the right of someone else to do the same.

I am extremely concerned about individual rights and freedoms... which are being eroded faster than water flows from a ducks back. I simply believe that if we don't take the time to speak out against the wrongs committed against others then soon we will have no choice but to walk in line all the way to slaughter.

[RawAlex]

Do I think she is being setup? Yup. Do you think that setups happen without there being enough truth to support them?

Two wrongs don't make a right (but two Wrights made an airplane). The actions of the law enforcement people doesn't make running a commercial adult business in a residential neighborhood any better. I think that some her story is missing (like I wonder how many donations get actually declared to the bankruptcy court, example)... I think that not everything in this situation is kosher, and I am sure the police / LE people are counting on it.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Bill, no, the zoning is still an issue - courts often issue contridictory rulings, or issue ruling that don't take into consideration other issues. What a bankrupcy court said about the validity of the business (a photo studio) can still stand in violation of zoning laws. People often forget that when you are dealing with the left hand, the right hand has no idea what you are up to.

Is running a dungeon for photoshoots legal? I think the answer is yes. Is running a photostudio in your house legal? If you have a permit, then you are good to go. Running an adult business in an residential area, well.. who knows?

Obviously the setup guy (the guy running up with cash in hand for the mistress) shows where they are going - prostituion and operating an adult business.

I also get a feeling that the "victim" here is splitting some legal hairs through all of this. Just a feeling, no proof... but I feel some shift in the story.

interesting and potentially relevant stuff:

http://www.pervscan.com/2003/08/30/is-sm-sex/

http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/law/law.html

http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/rumpoule.htm

Prostitution is usually defined as "sexual conduct for money." A number of professional dominants, male submissives that wanted to see professional dominants, and people wishing to start private dungeons and place spaces that require an admission fee have consulted me.

The laws in this area vary a great deal from state to state. For example, in most areas of California, professional dommes are not arrested for prostitution as long as there is no "sexual contact" with the client. However, in Arizona, prostitution is defined to include "Sadomasochistic abuse" which is further defined to include, "flagellation or torture by or upon a person who is nude or clad in undergarments or in revealing or bizarre costume or the condition of being fettered, bound or otherwise physically restrained on the part of one so clothed."

Penalties can vary as well. Usually prostitution is a misdemeanor. But, even still, depending on local laws, a conviction can result in a lengthy sentence.

Prostitution laws also apply to the clients as well. In most states, law enforcement not only set up "stings" on prostitutes by posing as clients, but also set up stings on the clients by posing as prostitutes.

Misdemeanor prostitution can suddenly become a pandering or "pimping" charge if others are employed in prostitution offenses. This is usually a felony in most states. Pandering charges have been applied in some cases where people have opened private "SM clubs" and charged for admittance. Probably there is no problem where people are on their own in finding partners. But where partners are provided by management, even if there is not an extra charge, charges have been brought.

So, be very careful any time money is being charged in connection with a sexually related activity. Especially when there is a profit that goes into someone's pocket, rather than covering expenses.

The best thing to do is contact an experienced criminal defense attorney in your area to learn not only the laws, but what police enforcement and prosecution policies are.

On a lighter note, in the Netherlands where prostitution is legal, the Fire Marshall announced a regulation that that customers could not be put in bondage that took longer than 30 seconds to release.

It goes on an on...

Bill, when I say soliciting, it is "soliciting for a sexual act". Newspapers will not knowingly list ads for illegal services, and often they will have rules as to what can be run and what cannot be run. It is a very fine line. Remember, escorts per se are not illegal (they sell time, not sex) but it is a very, very fine line between X and Y.

Alex

[Useless]

I guess my first question is this:
How much for a spanking?
How much more if I jerk off while being spanked?

I've been reading this thread with a certain amount of speculation and interest. I don't know why we'd care who designed her sites or care whether or not the designer gives two shits.

I don't understand why it's so wrong for a pornographer to have opinions about certain types of porn. Are we all supposed to line up behind webwoman and faithfully support her because she's a pornographer and by golly we porn people stick together? Fuck that. Those of us in the traffic business make judgements on porn everyday by listing or not listing sites or galleries that contain content that we may or may not feel comfortable with. Who amongst you is so vehemently opposed to infringing the first ammendment rights of your fellow webmasters that you list every fucking link submitted to you? Anyone?

[RawAlex]

UW, you nailed it.

Alex

[Tommy]

see this is where I think we are getting off the subject

From what webwoman said in her own words

the police never said anything about her websites, she doesn't know why shes been singled out but they did tell her this

Originally Posted by webwoman

they told me it was illegal to practice sadomasochism because it was a sex act the same as intercourse.
they told me spanking and any type of this play was prostitution.

I think they took her computers to prove she is charging for sex
appointments made in email and payments made, descriptions of what happens in the dungeon

instant message conversations
money records etc etc

if she was doing this in Nevada where prostitution is legal I would say she is in the right but that's not the case

also models or porn actors dont pay to be in porn videos

they get paid and the person they are having sex with is normally not the one laying out the money

I have to look at this and say what was her intention

do I beleive these people were paying 300 a hour for a sex act

or do i beleive these people where so depreate to be in a porn video they shelled out 300 a hour

Now I wanna ask the rest of you.
what do you think was really going on there ???

[Tommy]

Ohh btw
I doubt the cops are gonna charge you with anything

but they will be back
I think they just want you out of the neighborhood and they are gonna fuck with you untill you figure out it would be easyer to operate from somewhere else

thats why they never showed you a warrant
thats why they refused to tell you anything
thats why the guy walked up with money in hand
thats why they didnt give you any paper for the stuff they took

[Cleo]

Seems this was about prostitution and not pedaling smut so really it is not about the kind of business that this board is about.

That being said I find it amazing and a violation of of my right to do with my body as I see fit that it is ok to fuck a guy after he buys me dinner but not ok to fuck him if he gives me money to go shopping. Personally I much prefer the shopping money over something that I'm just going to shit out the next day.

[furrygirl]

One more post on this for now...

I'm not accusing anyone of being "prudes", I'm saying that it's weird what people get up in arms about and accuse of being derogative to the legal adult industry.

I seem to recollect that many posters on this thread who are knocking Webwoman were avid backers of Sleep Assault. In my opinion, sites such as Sleep Assault (or Meat Holes or Little April) do way more to discredit our industry as a whole (by virtue of being heavily promoted) than does one dominatrix. I don't believe that "extreme" or "taboo" porn should be *illegal* so long as it involves consenting adults, but I do think that *as members of the adult industry,* we should critique ourselves and our colleague in the interest of making a stronger adult industry. (This sort of nuanced reply is one that never seems to be grasped by so many people when I repeat it in different discussions. It's not a matter of wanting everything I ethically question to be illegal, it's a matter of having discussion about it *from within* the industry to consider what is best for all of us as a whole.)

That being said again, I just don't see why people who have no issue with porn sites that arguably encourages rape or pedo-lust get all riled up over the very *notion* that someone might be a prostitute.

And then, people are expressing that even though "prostitution" makes our industry look bad, they are pissed because they're not getting a cut of "donations" as affiliates. Make up your minds! You can't accuse someone of having illegal business dealings that you find to be "wrong", and then wonder where your pimp/revshare payment is.

Plus: As far as I know, being a dominatrix is not actually illegal if you're not having *sex* for money. Even with all the insinuations being thrown around in this discussion, there is no actual crime being committed in what EmpressM is doing. Believe it or not, but it's perfectly legal to straight-up charge someone $200 for being tied up and yelled at. Spanking someone is not prostitution. Flogging someone is not prostitution. Forced feminization play is not prostitution (Now, if you're not reporting that income, that's when you might get bothered by the IRS.)

Also, if people are so freaked out at the thought of promoting something that maybe possibly could be construed as having something to do with prostitution, then I hope you don't promote Adult Friend Finder of any dating sites. Where do you think the technologically hip hookers of new find their johns? [Ah, Bill beat me to this, I've been writing this reply while reading the thread.]

[RawAlex]

"bound to happen"... how appropriate!

Alex

[Hammer]

I agree, Gonzo. The thing is that usually when a thread gets interesting and people start debating both sides of the issue someone starts shouting 'stop the pissing' and the thread gets closed. I don't care for the boards where anything goes, but as long as no personal attacks are made, I don't see anything wrong with heated discussions.

One thing I've noticed is that 5 or 6 people can sit around a table at Internext and have the same exact type of discussion that we're having here, but since you can hear nuances in the voices and detect smirks and smiles when things are said, that same exact conversation is nothing more than that, a conversation. Take that same conversation and put in in print on a board and suddenly people start reading between the lines and hearing things that weren't intended the way they are interpretting them.

For example, Gonzo and I are good friends, but if anyone didn't know that and I replied to him in a post with "Oh shut up you fat fucking nobody", those people would go ballistic and fire off PMs to the mods to get me banned.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I agree, Gonzo. The thing is that usually when a thread gets interesting and people start debating both sides of the issue someone starts shouting 'stop the pissing' and the thread gets closed...

We don't close threads because of piss & the only assclowns that get banned are spammers

[RawAlex]

doublep, the question of "tasty children" really doesn't come from me or anyone here, but the logic that neighbors and therefore public officials will use. Enough people out there think that anyone who is into "recreational sex" has to also be a pervert, and some perverts are pedophiles. Why take the chance?

So, if she weighs the same as a duck....

It is one of the reasons many people in the industry don't tell their famlies what they do. Mention "I do internet porn", and they will immediately have you labelled as a spammer and CP distributor. There are built in assumptions at work.

Public officials respond to the concerns of the citizens (or their own concerns and biases). We get what we get.

Alex