Which Spons are Ready for 2257 Change?

[wesley]

I have heard said many times that if you are a non US person, example canadian that thse rules will still apply if you use US hosting, well here is my 2 cents on this;

first there has already been several court cases in the US that tried to make hosting companies responsible for what those using their hosting has used it for, with all being turned down, this is like trying to make your local phone company responsible because someone makes prank calls

secondly, some US states have no phone soliciting laws, what did this do? the companies now call out of canada, using US phone infastructure to deliver the sales pitch through, so to say that because we are selling to the US we must comply doesn't wash

as a producer of videos also, yes this will effect me if I use a distributor in the US that makes copies in the US but as a webmaster no, exept for those link sites who will over react and try to enforce on me US rules that do not apply to non US people

As to cull the field; for sure it will, but only in the US, you'll now get swamped with newbie webmasters from everywhere else but US, think about that for a minute, these new rules haven't fixed a problem, just moved things offshore

those LL sites that enforce these rules on non US websites will find themselves only primarily with US created sites, other LL will spring up built and hosted outside US, listing stuff as has been, after all these rules don't touch the buyer, who can buy from non US sites, so in the end this might shift a lot of the money out of the US

Just my thoughts......

[rollergirl]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham2

I agree with Alex, there are people in this business who have no right to be here and will be gone.

The real problem I have with this law is the revealing of models IDs, not webmasters. Webmasters have an option they can shut up shop. models have less of an option becasue I hear some sponsors want to distribute models IDs for content they already have. The model according to them has no say in the matter.

So long as models do not refuse to work for us, this law will not cost the industry one dime in revenue earned. No surfer will stop paying money for porn, in fact if it redduces the free porn available then it could mean more money earned. The content pirates could have a big problem with this law.

For some this law is the realisation that this is a business and not a game. If you do not want the neighbors to know you publish porn close down or get a legal front. But give the models, the life blood of this industry, the same respect.

At last we can see content is KING.

Many of these webmasters you'd like to see go down are your customers.

I think everyone is concerned about the safety of those working in our LEGAL business, not just models.

Originally Posted by rollergirl

Many of these webmasters you'd like to see go down are your customers.

I think everyone is concerned about the safety of those working in our LEGAL business, not just models.

Well as customers they will have the documents required. But yes some will decide this is not worth it and leave and for them on a personal level I'm sad. But this is business not a social club.

I have the responsibility of paying the 9 people who work for me and this is what I'm trying to do.

I'm also concerned about webmasters safety and models. Never said otherwise.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham2

If you do not want the neighbors to know you publish porn close down or get a legal front.

You have a point. The real protection against neighbors and friends knowing that you are in porn is to get a legal front with a business name and address. When I started six years I set up a legal business name and address before I uploaded my first porn page. I've never given any host,sponsor,content provider etc. my home address. You have to treat adult entertainment like any other business and invest some money upfront.

Steve

[Wenchy]

It's not my neighbors I worry about... it's stalkers, sickos, pissed off wives, and all the other psycho/sociopaths out there.

Add to that the fact that I have been running a legitimate business out of my home for over 10 years in the other field I work in and NEVER has anyone come to me and said that I had to publish my personal, private information out in the open just to be considered an honest businesswoman. Hell, even the IRS takes me at my word AND accepts my PO Box as my valid business address!

Next you'll all be suggesting that anyone who runs a net-based business, adult or mainstream, should get an office... stop and think about what you are suggesting for a minute. How many people ON THIS BOARD got into this business because one of the primary perks was being able to work at home?

It's not a crime to work at home, but what they are proposing as far as publishing names and addresses for models and WMs alike... well, I have my suspicions that borders on being illegal. We do have privacy rights in this country and I don't believe the DOJ or anyone else has the right to violate those for something as ridiculous as bogus bookkeeping issues.

Go ahead and flame me if you want to, I'm frankly beyond caring. I'm entitled to my opinion and now you've been entitled to it as well

[GunnCat]

Anyone has the right to do anything they want. That's the whole idea behind capitalism. 10 years ago most people here were probably not in the porn business but doing something completely different. Just because you shoot a lot of content Paul, doesn't make you any better than someone that opened their own site, or promotes sponsors. One of the great things about the internet is that is was a whole new gold rush. Anyone can drop what they are doing and try to get a piece of it; no reason someone can't try to improve their financial situation.
When the dust settles, we'll likely see honest webmasters out of business because sponsors are bound by contract to protect their models which is completely understandable. Pirating, Fusker for example will still be there considering their servers are located in England.
This is the US government waging war against it's own citizens, and there is nothing good about it.

[RawAlex]

Wesley, while it is true that this will more directly cull from the US webmasters, you have to understand that there is also a trickel down effect.

If sponsors stop giving out free content, many of the "new" webmasters in other countries will be forced to invest to be in business. Many of them won't have the money to buy content, and as a result, won't get into the business to start with. It might also change the way new affiliates are signed up, possibly making some programs close for new affiliates or otherwise limiting their exposure in some countries.

It also means that all those webmasters from "those" countries who have been hiding under US po boxes and whatnot will either have to declare themselves as american and be compliant or declare themselves as "other" and get kicked out of programs.

Changing the rules of the same, no matter how many players are directly affected will in the end touch everyone in the game. How much, where, and when is still subject for discussion.

Alex

Gunncat, I do not consider myself any better than people who opened a site last week, last year or shot porn for 30 years.

I do consider I know more about porn than a lot of them. But some opened porn sites very recently and their knowledge of porn is amazing, especially in some niches and probably better than mine. However these are the niches they've been jerking off to for years.

Did not know Fusker was hosted inthe UK, from the way it seems immune and able to do as it please I would have never thought it was hosted there.

[SI]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

If sponsors stop giving out free content, many of the "new" webmasters in other countries will be forced to invest to be in business.

How about non-US sponsors? For example someone from Europe using european hosting/sponsor/domain register company and build free sites for LL. If LL owners will not enforce on this euro-webmaster US laws, he'll be ok. IMHO

[xxxjay]

we are still getting ramped up for the whole 2257 debacle. We have a final meeting with our legal council on the 9th to finalize our strategy to make sure everyone’s asses are covered.

[guitar riff]

Wesley thats not what I understand about the law. Hosts aren't responsible for this that true but if you use any form of US business IE.. Hosting, processing, sponsor programs, leased stuff then you are bound by the laws of the US because you are conducting business through the united states. I pretty sure thats the rule Ill be sure tomorrow have an appt with a lawyer again tomorrow.

Originally Posted by guitar riff

Wesley thats not what I understand about the law. Hosts aren't responsible for this that true but if you use any form of US business IE.. Hosting, processing, sponsor programs, leased stuff then you are bound by the laws of the US because you are conducting business through the united states. I pretty sure thats the rule Ill be sure tomorrow have an appt with a lawyer again tomorrow.

The law as I said it states if you have the ability to alter the content you are liable, if not you are not.

Making hosts not liable, like book shops and newsstands.

[RawAlex]

You don't have to post the model's IDs online. This is a popular mistake. You don't have to indentify the models. Those items stay IN YOUR RECORDS. You do however have to have those records in your principle place of business, organized as per the new 2257 rules, and you must have a 2257 disclaimer on your sites that lists your principle place of business (and your real name) so that the DOJ can inspect those records.

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER post model personal information online.

Alex

[kalle7]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

You don't have to post the model's IDs online. This is a popular mistake. You don't have to indentify the models. Those items stay IN YOUR RECORDS. You do however have to have those records in your principle place of business, organized as per the new 2257 rules, and you must have a 2257 disclaimer on your sites that lists your principle place of business (and your real name) so that the DOJ can inspect those records.

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER post model personal information online.

Alex

That is excellent news. Thanks Alex! Made the future much more brighter

[RawAlex]

Paul, the problem is if they use softcore content to promote a hardcore site with hardcore banners, then their publication contains one or more images of sexual content and then they need 2257 for everything in the publication.

There is little or no way to slip out of this one easily.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Paul, I agree that softcore may be a way to go... but I think most webmasters will find that when they are competing against hardcore sites from outside the US, they are pretty much doomed. Further, I am not clear that using softcore material to promote a hardcore site would exempt you from rules - the premise is hardcore, no?

More importantly, model IDs should be required anyway, because nobody wants to have a topless 16 year old on their site.

Just as importantly, even if you material is 100% exempt, I think you still have to declare as a secondary producer, and as such, your name and address is still going to be out there for all to see.

Good fun.

Alex

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Paul, I agree that softcore may be a way to go... but I think most webmasters will find that when they are competing against hardcore sites from outside the US, they are pretty much doomed. Further, I am not clear that using softcore material to promote a hardcore site would exempt you from rules - the premise is hardcore, no?

More importantly, model IDs should be required anyway, because nobody wants to have a topless 16 year old on their site.

Just as importantly, even if you material is 100% exempt, I think you still have to declare as a secondary producer, and as such, your name and address is still going to be out there for all to see.

Good fun.

Alex

Agreed. the future for US affiliates is bought content with IDs, softcore or hosted. Will be a few exceptions but I guess that's it.

And the world will see where you work from.

[plateman]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham2

Agreed. the future for US affiliates is bought content with IDs, softcore or hosted. Will be a few exceptions but I guess that's it.

And the world will see where you work from.

I bought some markham content and the models reside overseas so is it legal to use by a US webmaster ??

Originally Posted by plateman

I bought some markham content and the models reside overseas so is it legal to use by a US webmaster ??

The law is confusing on this one. But it's been explained to me that I'm the producer so it's legal. They list the IDs that are acceptable so non US models shot by non US people are acceptable.

Just my opinion.

[ed146]

Btw I have some of your teen content Paul. However, since the documents are on pictures am I still vulnerable for providing valid documents or pictures with models showing them documents would suffice? Since the wording on 2257 is ambiguous at this point, I am clueless.

Here is the article
https://www.ynot.com/modules.php?op=...rder=0&thold=0

[ardentgent]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Paul, I agree that softcore may be a way to go... but I think most webmasters will find that when they are competing against hardcore sites from outside the US, they are pretty much doomed. Further, I am not clear that using softcore material to promote a hardcore site would exempt you from rules - the premise is hardcore, no?

More importantly, model IDs should be required anyway, because nobody wants to have a topless 16 year old on their site.

Just as importantly, even if you material is 100% exempt, I think you still have to declare as a secondary producer, and as such, your name and address is still going to be out there for all to see.

Good fun.

Alex

The statute applies to producers of sexually explicit matter.

In our discussion of this issue think there is unnecessary confusion because some of us are talking a from the perspective of a paysite owner and others are talking from the perspective of an affiliate.

If I make a tgp gallery with softcore images ( non-sexually explicit per the definition A-D of 2256) I don't think I have to worry about any documentation or record keeping or disclaimers even if I link to a sponsor with sexually explicit pictures on their server. Does this make sense?

[RawAlex]

ardentgent, it truly is not clear to me that softcore porn promotions are going to be exempt, and more importantly, I am not clear that they exempt people from the worst part of this law, meeting the requirements to publish a custodian of records, list an office, and so on.

You get into very questionable areas when you are promoting hardcore sites with softcore content, or using hardcore terms around softcore content.

Imagine a "child art" site (I hate the term). They do fall into a legal hole that says "art is good". However, if you mention fucking or anything on that part, it loses it's art status and becomes, well, porn.

Without keeping records and without having proper model identification, how do you prove it isn't child porn as per 2256? How do you prove that the entire work is exempt (IE, the photoshoot wasn't mixed hard and soft material)?

I am really not comfortable with trying to dodge something like this. Your in porn or your not, come on out of the closet.

Alex

[Mr. Blue]

I think everyone needs to settledown a little and take a deep breath. That's exactly what I did and instead of guessing what will happen with all the specifics or hoping for an injuction that will change this (which I think will happen), but I'm moving on dealing with the facts. Here's my personal plan:

1. Continue writing pages and document them so they're 100% compliant with the new regulation.

2. Move off free sponsor content unless the sponsor is going to provide you with the necessary information.

3. Euro content...honestly this for me is a grey area. Each week a different lawyer has a different take on the law. Personally I'm just going to pull the Euro content I used. There's plenty of U.S. content providers that can supply you with the needed documentation...why get cute and chance it? If / When the DOJ comes to inspect my records do I really want to argue the law with them? Umm, no...I'll leave that for other people to do.

http://www.ynot.com/modules.php?op=m...ticle&sid=9465

One lawyer after another keeps coming up with a different take on it.

4. Softcore / Hardcore - Softcore taken from a Hardcore set, lol, whatever...document everything. If you use primarily softcore they'll probably be less likely to investigate you...but again when / if they come for inspection do you really want to be arguing, "But spreading her pussy lips isn't sexually explicit!" Just have the documentation even on the softcore stuff. It takes around 15 minutes to catalog this shit a day.

5. Separate computer with my documentation on it. I assembled a cheap ass comp that can handle basic spreadsheets, that has a big enough HD, and when / if the time comes all my info will be on that comp. Also I'm making duplicate records so if they do need to take away info from my place...I have it all ready for them.
Price of a CD-R: A few pennies
Price of some printed up spreadsheets: Pennies
Getting those fucks out of my house 10 minutes quicker: Priceless

6. Home address...well, this is one of those, put up or shut up moments. It sucks, but no sense in arguing how much it sucks My one suggestion here would be for your 2257 page...make sure you use the noindex meta tag so google doesn't spider that page. Might even be worth writting a robot.txt file to specify that page not be indexed. If you have the money for an office...good for you...if you don't put your house address. If you don't want to put your house address...do mainstream pages I do rather nicely in mainstream.

I think its worth riding this storm out...porn on the net will be different 6 months from now, but more profitable for those that weather the storm.

[RawAlex]

Mr blue, exanding on point 6, you might want to put your contact info as an jpg or gif, with the right sized fonts and all... that will make the content not be indexed, and make it easy to replace if you move or change business offices later.

Alex

[Mr. Blue]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Mr blue, exanding on point 6, you might want to put your contact info as an jpg or gif, with the right sized fonts and all... that will make the content not be indexed, and make it easy to replace if you move or change business offices later.

Alex

Excellent Idea!!!