"Political Influence of Adult Sites" and "Free Speech Coalition" pressure.

[DJilla]

Originally Posted by Tom Hymes

*
* The fact is, we are actively working on developing policies that speak to the most difficult issues we face, which of course are Internet issues. Wanna help?

* I am putting together an outline for a specific proposal regarding metatags right now. When it is done, I will be soliciting feedback from people who know far more about coding than I, and will certainly ask people on this board for help. I should have the outline finished in a week or so. I am on board for developing a tag that is "short, simple and clean"

Simple metags that filters can/will recognize and SE's can/will index only with a self reporting regulation system modeled on how we handle spam now. This is the ways to go folks! Also, a great opportunity for the more technical of you to become a footnote in history by getting involved and making it happen. There is a lot of politicking and email work to be done trying to make a standard happen.

I'd like to suggest that "its a two way street" and to have the most influence upon FSC, we also should show them respect and demonstrate that we can offer a solid base of support. How to do this?

We're all link whores anyway, at minimum a text link to their website on an index page would be nice I'm pretty sure you should be a member to use their banner but a text link is cool. Send traffic to the site we want them to improve and show how many more surfers may be interested.

Second: FSC does run on money/donations so participants in the discussion should be encouraged to at least become members. Many "ma and pa" lists couldn't afford the $300 per website hit for FSC membership. But how about signing up for a personal membership (like $50?)?

Remember FSC also runs successful legal referal services for local cases too:

[Ms Naughty]

Alex, the Visa suggestion was made by me, not Furrygirl. While it may have cut down the scammers, it's also made life very difficult for non-US webmasters. That's my motivation in suggesting it.

I'll second Djilla on the idea of cheaper small memberships. Better to have 3000 people paying $50 than 50 paying $300, yes?

[RawAlex]

grandma, it is certain that the more people that are associated with a group, the better it is. FSC would be a much more inclusive situation if 5000 or 10,000 more members were part of the organization. Net dollars to work with, however, only happens if those numbers increase significantly. $300 for 50 members is the same as $30 from 500 - but the overhead to manage 500 members is higher we well. I am sure there is a solution in there somewhere to get more people in the game, just not sure how.

As for Visa, the issue isn't new and Furrygirl hits on Visa every chance she gets (mostly because they won't process for what she considered sexy). The fee isn't outrageous, and the cost to enter this business is lower than everything except maybe car thief or 7-11 holdup guy.

I do agree that the situation for non-US webmasters is a little bit out there, and it does limit people (including myself) as to what can and cannot be done. On the plus side, I haven't really see many sites out there with real processing that I could complain about.

Remember, if our industry doesn't take care of itself, outside forces (government, public opinion, ISPs, payment processors, etc) will make choices for us that we don't always like. That is why a group like FSC or other similar is important, because if we can come to agreements amoungst the majority of ourselves, it is easier to deal with these outside forces.

Alex

[Wazza]

Sorry if this has already been covered - but what is specifically wrong with ICRA tags?

It takes me 30 secs to get one for each new domain.

What is the motivation for wanting to reinvent the wheel here?

[RawAlex]

Wazza, the ICRA tags require that you register each domain, which is totally pointless - and the tags generated are freaking huge!

There is no reason to "register" anything - no third party required.

All that should be needed is a tag "meta rating = "ADULT" and be done with it. The browsers should be smart enough to look at the tag and take action based on it.

There really isn't a need for a complicated third party solution (third parties can disappear, leaving us all in the shit). Think simple!

Alex

[Wazza]

The meta:

<link rel="meta" href="http://yourdomain.com/labels.rdf" type="application/rdf+xml" title="ICRA labels" />

And the labels.rdf file is 2kb

I think we can manage both of these...

I'm not certain if "register" is the correct term either - I'm fairly certain that the 30 second process it takes to get the tag and file is to make sure that the correct values are inserted in the correct places.

[Bill]

This was fairly heavily discussed in this part of this thread:

http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...t=28269&page=3

The ICRA decision is one available to be made by every webmaster. I personally admit I have a strong personal dislike of the ICRA website and tag, so this colors my arguments.

However, to sum up:

1. The ICRA tag is nearly totally unapparent to parents and politicians. We need a tag that is crystal clear and present on every webpage, accesible not only by all browsers but by every parent and all other interested parties.
A self-rating tag is politically useless if it isn't _obvious_ and simple.

2. The ICRA tag is needlessly complex. All we need is a YES or NO - kids not allowed. This is porn - the ICRA/PICS tag attempts to categorize all possible "offensive" topics, and it's categories for sexual materials are, to put it plainly, stupid and not applicable to porn.

3. 3rd parties create industry wide vulnerabilities. (I've asked several times if anyone has a scriptlet or tool that creates PICS tags without ICRA - I'd accept the PICS designation that reads "erect penis and explicit sexual actions" as a universal tag if everyone else agreed to it, and it could be distilled into a simple universal tag.)

4. One single, simple, universally recognized and recognizable tag that can be placed in every porn header is simply a better technology. Why not abandon a poor technology and all start using a simple technology now, while the time to make the decision is ripe?

There are a few more lesser reasons, but these are the most important to my mind.

If you want to campaign for the ICRA tags go ahead. I don't like them, and it will take a lot of good arguments to convince me otherwise.

-----

I think I'll add this topic to the list of brainstorms:

* Create an action group to promote self-rating tags to the browser companies, politicians, and other interested organizations and companies.

[Maj. Stress]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

All that should be needed is a tag "meta rating = "ADULT" and be done with it.

Excellent idea Alex. Now all that needs to be done is to get filtering software to recognize it and probably the hardest part, get webmasters to use it. Maybe a good start would make it a requirement for link list and tgp? I don't really know, just a thought

[Wazza]

Yes I see you've already had a brawl about this - so I'll leave this as my final word on the subject.

What if parents want to allow their children to view certain things and not others?

The point of ICRA is that we declare what our site contains and parents have the final call.

If I were a parent I wouldn't want some porn slinger telling me what my kids are and aren't to see any more than the US government.

If taking 30 seconds to cover an entire domain is too hard - well attaching a tag probably is too...

And what makes you think the FSC tag will be any more visible and widely known than ICRA tags?

This is smelling of a power grab to me...

There's a standards compliant system already in place, but the FSC wants an FSC tag... this is one issue we can already say "job done" about, reinventing the wheel seems stupid and a waste of both time and effort to me.

[Toby]

ICRA is just too complex for scripts to check. Parents that want more control over what their kids see need to supervise their time online.

"meta rating = "ADULT" isn't a new tag, it's valid HTML 4.0. It is simple to add on ANY adult page, and simple to check for.

Also, there's no reason that those that still want to use ICRA can't include both tags.

[RawAlex]

Wazza, not about reinventing a wheel. We wanted a simple wheel, someone tried to foist the space shuttle on us. No more difficult than that. If you want to use a more complex tag, I don't think anyone will stop you, but a simple tag can be checked for simply.

Imagine, for a minute, that we set our bots to make sure there is a ICRA tag (which loads another file). Unless we load that other file, we will never know if the tag is valid (you could put the tag on and then rate your page "acceptable for all people").

A grass roots effort by link sites and TGPs could help tremendously in showing our "good intentions".

I should point out that the ICRA site is a 4 step process, the requires both a site name and an email address. Feels like registering to me.

Alex

[SirMoby]

I use ICRA labels on my servers and I did have to register 1 domain and 1 email address. The same label can be used for all my servers.

1. I think for now we should all use ICRA labels and make it clear to The FSC, lobbyist and hopefully the senate that this rating system is available and is being used today.

2. Obviously we need a better human readable system since ICRA requires registering and forces it's own existence. We need something that everyone can use.

3. I'm not a fan of a single rating such as "Adult". I think we need to make the case for rating of ALL types of material where exposure can be harmful. If we make a rating just for sexual material then it's us against them and it doesn't do shit to protect children.

I propose that we pen a labelling system that includes different levels of nudity, violence, sexual, language, religion and adult subjects such as rape and birth control. This way we can make a stronger argument and pull more people into the mix for the senate.

It makes it very difficult to force the implementation of some complex and burdensome system if a larger group needs to use it and that includes the major conservative supporters.

[RawAlex]

SirMoby, my feeling is split on this issue. Just like on television, there are only a few simple levels. Simple makes it easy for people to understand and control. In theory, what is on the ICRA form that we are suppose to fill out would be the same form that "parent of AOL surfer" would have to fill out as well. Unlikely they would handle it correctly. If you just ask "how old is the surfer", it could auto rate things based on a simpler scale of G-PG-R-X (general thru Adult).

If you wanted to FURTHER go into detail in a secondary tag (or a ICRA tag) more power to you. But I can't picture a complicated system as being the best solution (or a solution that could truly be implemented).

The tags needs to be clean, clear, EASY to read, and what is on the page has to be what everyone sees... including other files and stuff is just not acceptable (hard to bot).

Alex

[Greenguy]

WOW! I missed a lot of this thread with my party weekend. Gonna read thru it now & I think this will be the main topic of discussion on the show tonight

[Ms Naughty]

If I can point out this announcement:
http://greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=28708

Sex Reloaded are linking to an instructional page from their paysites. The page uses graphics and simple directions to point out how to block content using your browser.

I think this is a great idea and a good one to throw into the mix here. We've discussed tags and encouraging use of nanny software but I forgot about the browser stuff.

As a paysite owner I think it's a cool idea. We already have a link to Netnanny on our front page, perhaps a link to similar instructions would also be good.

I also had a few brief negative thoughts about putting up a page like that:
1. Will such a page interfere with SE rankings (it's another "out" link)?
2. Will it distract the surfer and ruin a sale?
3. Would a link to such a page belong on the index splash page?
4. Is a paysite the best place to put this kind of info?
These may be the kinds of questions that paysite owners ask about this idea.

I realise this isn't necessarily a new idea - plenty of other paysites have put similar info on their warning pages. Although I suspect that's always been a link elsewhere (like Netnanny) rather than a set of specific instructions.

Would paysite owners be better off doing their own individual pages or linking to a standard one? The latter would save time. Perhaps it can be on the site where we host our "official statement".

And again, publicity is important, so it would help to say that "This page is a public service brought to you by the Adult Industry".

Just a few more brainstormy thoughts... Thanks to Sex Reloaded for their idea.

[Greenguy]

I just wanted to post & say that my "feminist" comments in the early part of the radio show (archive is uploading now) as well as my lame attempt at humor with the title of the chat room was not intended to offend anyone, especially furrygirl, Kat, Trixie, Grandmascrotum, etc. and if I did offend anyone, I am truly sorry.

...and I still blame SirMoby for all this

[MrYum]

Personally, I'm a big believer in the KISS principle. We already have a valid html tag to use in "meta rating = "ADULT". Combined with providing linkage to a page like Sex Reloaded is using, those are definitely signs of making an effort.

Love Grandma's idea of 'Provided as a public service by the adult industry'...that's the kind of PR we could use

Getting the FSC to get the word out that we are taking action to assist certainly couldn't hurt either.

[Ms Naughty]

Hmm, I wasn't listening live, and now I'm afraid to download the archive. Perhaps I don't need to know, or comment on it, especially in this thread.

Or should I put on my "SuperDworkin" costume and kick some butt?? LOL

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

Hmm, I wasn't listening live, and now I'm afraid to download the archive. Perhaps I don't need to know, or comment on it, especially in this thread.

Or should I put on my "SuperDworkin" costume and kick some butt?? LOL

It wasn;t that harsh IMHO but it was looked at as such by others

When I log into the chat room, I usually put some silly title in for the room. Today's was "The Greenguy & Jim Feminist & Name Infringement Show"

[natalie]

Hey Grandma, I think you will find it safe to listen to. Or should I say GG will find it safe for you to listen to.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

I just wanted to post & say that my "feminist" comments in the early part of the radio show (archive is uploading now) as well as my lame attempt at humor with the title of the chat room was not intended to offend anyone, especially furrygirl, Kat, Trixie, Grandmascrotum, etc. and if I did offend anyone, I am truly sorry.

...and I still blame SirMoby for all this

It was a good discussion piece (even if I am not used to trying to formulate complete sentences and could barely talk because of my cold).

I missed a lot of what was said in the chatroom while I was blathering on, but went back to read it, saw more discussion about the TERM "feminist" and the baggage associated with it, and wanted to clarify that I am proud to call myself a feminist AND a whore. It's unfortunate that only the most extreme examples of feminism spring to some people's minds when they hear/see the word. Associating all feminists with one militant (and often bizarre) way of thinking has very effectively served to divide and conquer us by making so many people ashamed to associate themselves with the word.

It's nuts to think that feminism means the same thing to every feminist. We feminists have not all adopted one single manifesto just as not all pornographers and people in this industry agree on the steps we need to take to protect our businesses. I am still proud to call myself a pornographer even though I strongly disagree with a lot of pornographers' ideas, goals and products. I would still defend their right to produce it and do their jobs (even though I may be critical of some of it).

[DangerDave]

Having just listened to the show in it's entireity...

IMO Trixie you did yourself and furrygrl no favours...

I too have a family,
and I too have kids,
and I too am independant...

So why do these criteria make you and the other "indie webwhores" any different to any other webmaster including Alex or myself!

Guess what they don't!

DD

[Trixie]

One of the differences is in how other people OUTSIDE of the industry will PERCEIVE an affiliate versus a performer/webmaster/paysite owner-operator. I personally think that the middlemen in this industry are the ones that the public would be the LEAST sympathetic towards. That's my opinion. I'm open to arguments convincing me I'm wrong, but so far I am not hearing any.

Another of the differences is that performer/webmasters interact more with consumers and can better convey that porn consumers are regular people -- adults -- who have a right to consume porn. I think we also need to have consumers as representatives - I'm not trying to say there should be fewer representatives, just considering who could best represent the people that the strong arm of the law says it needs to protect. There are no feminists or mommies crying about how we need to protect tgp owners or gallery submitters, but they ARE crying about needing to protect their fragile husbands and unparented kids and the poor abused porn actresses.

I have to go to bed now, but those are a couple of examples I can think of off the top of my head. Why is the idea that we are different so offensive to you?

It's not that I don't think you're a "regular person", or that you don't have a family, or that you don't take pride in what you do, or that you have no ethics, or that you don't work for yourself. BUT the people who bring real product that they created themselves to consumers firsthand with no middlemen and few or no upsells have a perspective that's different from someone running a linklist or tgp. I don't understand what is so crazy or offensive about that notion.

There are some people who go above and beyond making a buck to try to educate and portray sexuality honestly and depict women with integrity. People whose porn sites also have artistic, educational, and political merit -- those are the kinds of spokespeople I think the industry needs, not to the exclusion of others, but if we're fantasizing about "the perfect" representative, that's what comes to mind for me. Not that I think all porn should have artistic, educational, or political merit, but it would be nice to show that pornography can be all of those things and would make people more sympathetic. That's just what I think. It's hard for me to find much socially redeeming content on a linklist or tgp, but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.

[RawAlex]

trixie, until you take that huge chip off your shoulder there is nothing that can be said that can convince you of anything - you are beyond right in your own mind, you are on a crusade.

You wouldn't want to hear the truth, and I don't think you could handle it if you had it handed to you on a platter.

Alex

[Mr. Blue]

Some things that I took away from the radio show tonight.

• First, listening to the show I thought this thread would have been considerably more dramatic than it actually was. If anyone got really upset or offended by this thread they need to get a thicker skin
• Furrygirl made some valid points
• Sirmoby was right, why are we talking about feminism?

The first thread that got this all started was Tommy's post regarding linking to a page. That thread got sidetracked by a few people babbling, etc. on unrelated tangents. In that thread I said, "This thread seems to be losing its focus and it's unfortunate that it is because something positive can come out of it."

In this thread Sirmoby wanted to stick on the topic at hand and I agree with him. It's like the adult biz suffers from the biggest case of Attention Deficit Disorder on the planet and we get nothing accomplished because of it.

Let's find people that represent the most avenues of porn. I don't care if it's a woman, a performer, a LL owner, a tgp owner, a tranny, just as long as its someone that will be effective...but we're not even at that stage yet. Let's get to that stage and then discuss it, calmly, without mudding the waters with other topics.