"Political Influence of Adult Sites" and "Free Speech Coalition" pressure.

[RawAlex]

Mr Blue, I think we need to consider this: Do feminist whores need their own organization because, by Trixies own admission, their business model is so different from ours? Do they only suck up to the mainstream industry when it works for them, immediately shunning it when it becomes too restrictive or too whitebread for them?

Think about this, taken right off of Trixie's own site:

On behalf of myself and WebWhores everywhere, I, TastyTrixie, hereby issue the following original draft 10-point WebWhore Manifesto:

WebWhore Pride Points:

1. WebWhores defy stereotypes.
We are not just a bunch of dumb slutty moneygrubbing bitches. Most of us are not whoring ourselves out of desperation. We come in all different shapes and sizes and from different backgrounds. There is nothing you can assume about a WebWhore except that she has balls (figuratively speaking).

2. WebWhoring empowers women.
We can set our own hours, our own prices, and our own limits. We have the potential to make more money while we have more fun than we could in a "respectable" career field. We can turn off the computer if we feel violated or degraded or put-out by someone (which actually happens far less than in "respectable" career fields).
Those of us with families can take care of them without it interfering with our jobs. We can safely have fun playing dress up, good girl, bad girl, etc. and exploring who we are and what we like. We can have creative/financial/organization control over our own businesses.

3. Good WebWhoring requires skill.
Being a good WebWhore demands more than mere sexual savvy and physical "beauty". Good WebWhores usually have a mix of some of the following characteristics: personality, technical knowledge, creativity, confidence, bravery, style, intuition, customer service skills, empathy, imagination, originality, marketing knowledge, networking know-how, open-mindedness, experience, compassion, curiosity, daring, perseverance, and a genuine love of people and sexuality.

4. WebWhore clients defy stereotypes.
Just as WebWhores are often your typical "girl-next-door" types, their clients are also your typical guys-next-door. People who enjoy internet porn come from all walks of life and are looking for all kinds of different WebWhores. Our customers look and act just like everybody else. Coming across the stereotypical porn consumer (whoever he is) is actually pretty rare. As WebWhores we enjoy special opportunities to get to know all kinds of different people on all sorts of different levels. We have fun with each other, get off with each other and often come to care about each other.

WebWhore Purpose Points:

5. Sex Workers' economic and social contributions to society deserve commendation, not criminalization.
It's about time we stopped marginalizing, stigmatizing, ignoring, and punishing sex workers. We've been around forever, we've made marks on history, we've provided services in response to an unending demand. Quit the resentful narrow-minded bullshit and give us some fucking credit!!!!!

6. Women should NOT be villified and disrespected for capitalizing on human sexuality.
People should pay women for sex work with the same respect and appreciation one would expect to pay ministers, teachers, lawyers, doctors, therapists, etc. Furthermore, one cannot assume a whore's primary motivation for doing her "job" is monetary any more than one could assume a doctor's primary motivation for healing patients is solely for money. Just as there are good doctors and bad doctors, there are good whores and bad whores. . . anybody who does their job just for the paycheck without any joy or emotion is doing a poor job. Having said that, anybody who thinks someone should do a job for him pro bono just because the service-provider LIKES her/his job is an asshole. Would you walk into a psychiatrist's office and say "hey! You like helping people don't you?? I can't pay you but how about if I plop down on your couch and talk your ear off for an hour?"

7. WebWhores should commit to a professional code of ethics.
At the very least we should treat our customers and each other with respect. Unfortunately some WebWhores are catty, judgemental, two-faced, bitchy, biggoted, narrow-minded, petty hypocrites (the same people you have to work with in ANY field). Fortunately in cyberspace it's easier to ignore such nasty bitches than it would be in a regular office. Still, it would be nice if WebWhores would commit to shunning and ostracizing any foul cunt who made a point of disrupting another WebWhore's business or hurting her feelings. We should also disassociate ourselves from any bitch who purposefully misleads or mistreats our customers.

8. WebWhores should join hands with other adult entertainment/sex workers to promote pride in our trade.
Although there are obviously huge differences between dancing, webwhoring, escorting, streetwalking, video porning, etc. we all still have to deal with the same stigmas and bullshit in our respective professions.

9. People need to stop blaming porn for our social ills and start looking at the REAL indecencies in our society.
We tolerate and turn a blind eye to thousands of phenomenons that are more evil, sick and disturbing than pornography. The real obscenity in our culture is our frightening disregard for the golden rule ("love your neighbor as yourself"). WebWhores are NOT the enemy. Porn is NOT the enemy. If we want to "clean up" society we should start by focusing on instilling & practicing basic values like the golden rule. As long as people are inconsiderate and mean to each other we have bigger fish to fry than judging consenting adults for porn creation and consumption. People should get their priorities straight when they talk about "values". We need to treat each other with human kindness and consideration . . . all the other rules we make to govern our behavior are sheer trivia.

10. Compromising our freedom of speech is NOT the way to protect children or further the objectives of feminism.
Does this point need any elaboration? I don't think so.

I am sorry, but I don't think that this manifesto speaks for very many people in the porn industry.

Alex

[Toby]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

...their business model is so different from ours...

My business model is quite different than most that post on this board. I guess that means I should go find some other organization too.

I have a better idea, lets get back to forming a basic online industry postion statement aimed at addressing the current legal attacks on our industry.

[Mr. Blue]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Mr Blue, I think we need to consider this: Do feminist whores need their own organization because, by Trixies own admission, their business model is so different from ours? Do they only suck up to the mainstream industry when it works for them, immediately shunning it when it becomes too restrictive or too whitebread for them?

*sticking fingers in ears and makes the LALALALALALA sound* I can't hear you talking about feminism.

I am a bit curious how their business model is so different than the average webmaster. Granted, I'm just in it for the money and a nice beach house when I retire, maybe that's the difference.

[Mr. Blue]

Originally Posted by Toby

I have a better idea, lets get back to forming a basic online industry postion statement aimed at addressing the current legal attacks on our industry.

I think this thread is gone with the wind...time to start a new one and try to keep the Attention deficit disorder to a minimum on it.

[Bill]

Have a bit of patience - these side issues will reach a homeostasis. The central purpose of the thread will continue forward. If need be new threads for this purpose will be started.

These are just minor bumps on the path. Lets give the process some hours more.

[Mr. Blue]

Originally Posted by Bill

Have a bit of patience - these side issues will reach a homeostasis. The central purpose of the thread will continue forward. If need be new threads for this purpose will be started.

These are just minor bumps on the path. Lets give the process some hours more.

okay Bill, when you first posted this thread I thought it was a great idea, good way to get the industry focused, and I would like to see it continue and at least get us to the next stage.

[Simon]

I agree that it would be good to focus, for now, primarily on the things that we can first accomplish.

I believe there will be time to address all the related and supporting issues once we have some momentum. I don't think we want to let this opportunity get mired in the kind of endless debates that only need to happen because we seemingly don't want to agree that we're all in this together.

Perhaps if we put our heads together long enough to create something that benefits all of us, even if not directly focused on our own specific needs, we'll all see that more clearly.

I've stayed away from this discussion in part because our own sites deal with some things that are not understood easily by everyone, and which many people do get quite squicked about. So I don't want to move the focus from where I think it needs to be, for now, onto making sure that my own needs, and the needs of my more narrow community, are met.

For now, I'm more interested in seeing that we simply accomplish something together here, and that we come away knowing that, together, we have much more power than if we work against each other.

Simon


--

If you can't see the bright side, polish the dull side.

[Candy]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

· To pay taxes

I will not pay taxes on internet sales if no one else has to pay taxes on internet sales. I don't care whether it's porn or not. Tax everyone or noone. Do not discriminate against me (us) because I (we) sell porn.

Originally Posted by Simon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squick.[/i]

Great link.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Toby

My business model is quite different than most that post on this board. I guess that means I should go find some other organization too.

I have a better idea, lets get back to forming a basic online industry postion statement aimed at addressing the current legal attacks on our industry.

No, however, if your business model is significantly different from most of the porn industry, you don't attempt to change the porn industry to match your standards and your practices because you feel somehow superior to the walmarts of porn.

The tail cannot wag the dog.

You didn't come to the table with a manifesto a chip on your shoulder. That means that you are likely able to understand and accept that not everyone wants to do things you way. That is something that is clearly needed to make this work out.

A manifesto that basically says "the porn industry is stupid" isn't going to help us out one iota.

Alex

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

No, however, if your business model is significantly different from most of the porn industry, you don't attempt to change the porn industry to match your standards and your practices because you feel somehow superior to the walmarts of porn.

The tail cannot wag the dog.

You didn't come to the table with a manifesto a chip on your shoulder. That means that you are likely able to understand and accept that not everyone wants to do things you way. That is something that is clearly needed to make this work out.

A manifesto that basically says "the porn industry is stupid" isn't going to help us out one iota.

Alex

That manifesto doesn't say "the porn industry is stupid". Where do you GET that? And fyi: I didn't submit it here as something that would help out --- YOU snagged it off my site and brought it into the discussion, NOT me.

How can you quote my manifesto (which is totally off-topic, by the way -- I do not see the relevence) but not understand it AT ALL? Where do I say anything about changing the entire industry to meet my standards? Where does it say that "the porn industry is stupid"? Where does it say that I'm superior to anyone? When did I say everyone should do everything my way? I didn't say any of those things, and nothing in it has anything to do with you.

If you read that and interpret it as a condemnation of the industry or that it proves I think I could do without the rest of the industry, you. are. the one. with. a chip. on. his shoulder. I am proud to be a pornographer and to be part of this industry. And YOU are the one bringing things into the discussion that are completely off topic.

If you want to continue to obsess on what you IMAGINE I am saying, why don't you call my phone sex line or join my site instead of wasting everyone's time trying to convince them that I said things I didn't and that I think things I don't? What other purpose do your posts have besides to try to engage me and to make it appear I am saying things I am not?

If you keep it up, I'm taking Jim's advice and just going to report your shit-stirring off-topic designed-to-put-people-on-the-defensive posts. Or maybe you should start your own thread called, "Twixie hurt my wittle feelings!"

[RawAlex]

Trixie, let me just quote your own manifesto for you:

"Unfortunately some WebWhores are catty, judgemental, two-faced, bitchy, biggoted, narrow-minded, petty hypocrites "

You might want to take your own advice. You have been nothing but narrow minded and judgemental towards me. Perhaps you should disassociate yourself from yourself?

Alex

[Jim]

Just some quick input...
Let's please behave like professionals. That is what this thread is really about, isn't it? We want to be treated like professionals and not just low life pornographers who don't care if a child sees our offerings.

[Ms Naughty]

I will not pay taxes on internet sales if no one else has to pay taxes on internet sales. I don't care whether it's porn or not. Tax everyone or noone. Do not discriminate against me (us) because I (we) sell porn.

Let me clarify: I didn't have that in mind when I wrote about paying taxes. I was thinking more along the lines of: we're legitimate businesses, we'll pay our (income) taxes like everyone else.

But you do raise another point that we need to lobby on: the crazed suggestions of a "sin tax" on internet porn. It's another issue that we have to fight against for exactly the reasons that Candy has said.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

...But you do raise another point that we need to lobby on: the crazed suggestions of a "sin tax" on internet porn. It's another issue that we have to fight against for exactly the reasons that Candy has said.

I say put a porn tax in place - it legitimizes our industry just like it does for smoking & drinking.

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

I say put a porn tax in place - it legitimizes our industry just like it does for smoking & drinking.

Smoke and drink are taxed when they're imported from other countries. Internet porn cannot be taxed when imported from other countries. Haven't we seen enough jobs go over seas during this administration?

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by SirMoby

Smoke and drink are taxed when they're imported from other countries. Internet porn cannot be taxed when imported from other countries. Haven't we seen enough jobs go over seas during this administration?

Maybe laws vary from state to state, but we pay a shitload of "sin tax" on smokes & booze that is produced here in the good old US of A.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

I say put a porn tax in place - it legitimizes our industry just like it does for smoking & drinking.

I'm with Grandma -- none of the research proves that consuming porn leads to sex crimes, poor health, etc. but there is lots of evidence about the detrimental effects of smoking and drinking.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Trixie

Not that I think all porn should have artistic, educational, or political merit, but it would be nice to show that pornography can be all of those things and would make people more sympathetic. That's just what I think. It's hard for me to find much socially redeeming content on a linklist or tgp, but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.

Do you even understand why men (by far the largest consumers of pornography) enjoy porn? If so, it doesn't come across very well. I've never met a man who sat around with his cock in one hand and his mouse in the other whose purpose was the journey toward social enlightenment. Maybe convincing yourself that you can make some sort of difference in the world with your particular brand of porn makes it easier for you to live in a society where most men and women outside of this business consider you nothing more than a hooker on film.

If you have such little respect for TGPs and Linkists, and have no need for their socially uninformed traffic, then you better update your affiliate program with a notice stating that you don't want to be promoted that way.

Someone better show me how the fuck "red porn" is socially redeeming, because most of us rank it down their with scat and fucking corpses.

EDIT - Maybe you'd like to report this post since I obviously don't agree with you on this particular issue. Go ahead, have me censored.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

I've never met a man who sat around with his cock in one hand and his mouse in the other whose purpose was the journey toward social enlightenment.

Can you tell me more about the men you've met sitting around with their cocks in their hands? This is getting me hot . . . do you ever engage in mutual masturbation with these men? Pics please.

[Beaver Bob]

Originally Posted by Trixie

Can you tell me more about the men you've met sitting around with their cocks in their hands? This is getting me hot . . . do you ever engage in mutual masturbation with these men? Pics please.

I think he makes a pretty good point there and I think you are avoiding it by trying to be witty. |badidea|

[RawAlex]

Nice answer Trixie. No real good and honest answer, so you turn to an attack?

That is usually the response of someone who is guilty as charged.

Alex

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Trixie

Can you tell me more about the men you've met sitting around with their cocks in their hands? This is getting me hot . . . do you ever engage in mutual masturbation with these men? Pics please.

Some friends and I sit together in a large circle and jerk each other off while discussing the abundance socially redeeming pornography we've stumbled upon as of late.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Trixie

I'm with Grandma -- none of the research proves that consuming porn leads to sex crimes, poor health, etc. but there is lots of evidence about the detrimental effects of smoking and drinking.

That still doesn't change the fact that putting a Gov't tax on it would make the entire porn business even more legit.

[Trixie]

I'm avoiding responding to it because MOST PEOPLE are getting tired of the off-topic B.S.

The red/period stuff has been hashed over a number of times on this board to no avail. If people who weren't already involved in those discussions had an honest desire to understand why I make period porn and what is socially redeeming about it, they could simply go to my site or do a search for those threads.

As for Useless' initial charge, it is clear that he didn't understand my points the first time, so what is the point of trying to make them a second time? But fine, I'll try again: I don't think all or even most porn needs to have redeeming qualities. My point was that if we're presenting arguments to anti-porn people, being able to provide examples of porn that DOES have socially redeeming qualities might help us make more convincing arguments.

It seems like you guys read animosity into things where it doesn't even exist, and then you start a flame war.

Examples: FurryGirl says, "many feminists are against us" and a few people hear, "FurryGirl is a feminist and she hates us! US! And she is not one of US! Begone, foul feminist!"

I could say "the sky is blue" right now and you guys would be like, "but you want to paint it red with your menstrual fluid and the blood of tgp and linklist owners! Arrr! You can't fool me, I *know* you're a she-devil!"



This is why I try not to waste time hanging around here and other boards -- judging from your posts, it's feels like a waste of time and energy to try to dialogue with some of you guys. My time is better spent talking to the people who pay me: those guys with their cocks in one hand and their mice in the others.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

That still doesn't change the fact that putting a Gov't tax on it would make the entire porn business even more legit.

All it would do is serve to make the arguments AGAINST porn legit. Porn *is* taxed via sales tax except on the internet -- if they want to change the structure of taxation on the internet for everyone, then fine. I wouldn't have a problem with a regular sales tax. But when people (democrats, no less) propose taxes of 25% on porn as though we are at fault for every sick sex crime that happens, going along with it doesn't legitimize our industry, it makes us sound like we're entering a "guilty" plea bargain.