New free site format (version 1.5)

[LowryBigwood]

Goodluck trying to change the established model. As far as I can see, all of the points you mentioned Kit are not validated. I also agree that the purpose of the normal freesite is not intended to be SE friendly as GG and DD stated. Maybe 3-4 years ago, but certainly not today...

Lets just scrap the entire free porn model all together and then we'll really make out?

[KG Gary]

From a design point of view, I'd love to see some change allowed in the way I build freesites. After a few hundred, even the most original designs look like overused templates.
Change is welcome as long as we make sure the changes benefit everyone involved as much as possible. I'm not convinced that this new idea does that.

A few questions:

1. What happens to all of those smaller/newer link lists out there that don't make the 40-50 limit? Do we just drop them and the good relationships we've built up?
I'm not happy to do that, sorry.

2. How would a link list owner know if mirrors are created?

3. Can anyone coax Greenguy into sharing his new ideas so we can bounce them around a bit?


I was considering the referring page - sales thing a few days ago when comparing the use of sponsor content to bought content.
From what I could see, using sponsor content on a freesite gets me more sales, although the index page does show as the referring url. That leads me to think that the surfer takes a look at the sponsor straight away, from the first page of my freesite, then returns to my freesite to check out my free samples, and then heads back to the sponsor from a gallery to join if he likes what he sees.
That's what it looks like, but I could be wrong.

[AndyS]

As I have said in a few other threads I would love to use flash movies too. Less porn given away (unless the surfer is reasonably tech savy and knows how to grab them) plus more bookmarkers which I think with toolbars ‘sharing’ information on the surfers habits can only been seen as a big vote for that page.

There are possible problems with cheaters but why not for trusted submitters?

I think the idea of updating free sites interesting as from the moment anyone starts building them one of the first things said is just build and forget.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

...I'm always amazed at how resistant the old guard is to change unless, of course, it was their own idea or their new rule...

If I came up with this idea I'd expect to be bashed around a bit as well. Hell, if anyone knows about taking a bashing because of new rule changes, it's me But like DDave said, this seems to be change for the sake of changing & that's never good.

What would these 1.5 sites do in reality?
1 - eliminate the warning page - something that Free Sites & Link Lists were BUILT on. Way back in time, sites like mine & al4a linked to the same type of sites/pages. Somewhere in there, sites like al4a started to link right to the gallery pages & sites like mine started to link to warning pages only. I am NOT saying that I invented any of this, but somewhere in there, TGP & Link Lists were created. The warning page is a massive portion of the Link List & Free Site foundation.
2 - adding more recips - can anyone tell me the rule of thumb for the number of recip links you can put on a warning page? Anyone? Bueller? Frye? The answer is: no one knows We've all seen warning pages with 6 recips that look like Gov Patterson placed them on the page & we've all seen sites with 20-30 recips that looked just lovely. Do I think that the rule of thumb should be 40+ recips? No. But for fuck sakes, the left hand cell (ie: the 1st coding the SE spider reads) should not be filled with 40+ blind links!

Originally Posted by KG Gary

...3. Can anyone coax Greenguy into sharing his new ideas so we can bounce them around a bit?
...

Soon

***

Kit? Comment?

[Simon]

for fuck sakes, the left hand cell (ie: the 1st coding the SE spider reads) should not be filled with 40+ blind links!

Absolutely right.

For those who use CSS for laying out pages but may not know how to do this, here's a short article about how to make sure your content is always first in the page source code that the SE spiders read--regardless of the design of the site--followed by things like navigation, banners, recips, etc.

Hope that doesn't ruin anyone's plans.

[stuveltje]

mmm i have tried those things all when i made free sites years ago, i believe i still have them, just a warning page with link on it right to the galleries (so no main page) then its only one click for the surfers, index pages with the icra, btw there are enough webmasters who build their sites that way. I dont see it as a new rule or a new thing, its up to the reviewer or linksite owner if he will accept it or not, even its not in the rules of the LLs i review i still will accept those sites (already do for years, fi they are not to bad...some are realy bad) but i still go for the old rules, everyone can deside if they wanna change the rules, but i also like the way how some webmasters (free site submitters) think and find a totally different way to make a free site.

[ponygirl]

well, I assumed that template was just an example, now everyone's talking about having that blogroll style strip of recips on every index page? I knew I should have stayed out of this lol

I still would want to design my freesites the way I want them, 4 page, 3 page, where the recips go & how many I use, where my ads go etc. I guess it would be better SE wise not to do mirrors, but you're pretty limited as to where you can put 40+ links on a page, the side strip seems to be the only way to do that and still have it look decent. Wouldn't that actually make every freesite look even more the same?

I just thought it'd be fun to shake up the freesite structure a bit, so there's a little variety available to the surfer and the builder I guess.

It's interesting to hear other people's opinions and thoughts, though.

[stuveltje]

Originally Posted by ponygirl

well, I assumed that template was just an example, now everyone's talking about having that blogroll style strip of recips on every index page? I knew I should have stayed out of this lol

I still would want to design my freesites the way I want them, 4 page, 3 page, where the recips go & how many I use, where my ads go etc. I guess it would be better SE wise not to do mirrors, but you're pretty limited as to where you can put 40+ links on a page, the side strip seems to be the only way to do that and still have it look decent. Wouldn't that actually make every freesite look even more the same?

I just thought it'd be fun to shake up the freesite structure a bit, so there's a little variety available to the surfer and the builder I guess.

It's interesting to hear other people's opinions and thoughts, though.

damn i should have waited with my posting, you tell better, I agree with ponygirl

[LeRoy]

This is very interesting. I am still very new to the freesite game. I do like the idea of 40 recips on the index page. My hosted freesites for my program Lefty's Bucks are on the index page. I should have submitted them to Penis Bot and some others that required the index.html instead.

[stuveltje]

yes i am gonna try again and who the fuck cares what he/she thinks about me, any page of a free site with a 40 link backs or more like a blog...will never get listed at any linksite, oke at kit"s and maybe 2 or 3 more, now nobody have to keep at any rules made on the net if you talking about free sites and the linksites you are submitting to...well in a certain way then, every linksite may make his own rules and every free site submitter can deside him/herself to submit to what linksite, what i do know is...the old way is there for years (no matter who invented the rules) its to protect you from cheaters and to get bookmarkers at your site....i think those old rules will never changed...they are there for an reason, so well if someone like to have a new rule and list sites with more then 40+ linkbacks, i dont mind...i know why the old rules are there and found out myself, same reason why not every submitted blog is listed either, thats a good example the blogs,( it was metioned at the OTB this eve also, when a blog submitted at the sites i review for, 8 out of 10 submitted blogs i have to go thru 50+linkbacks to find the linkback to the linksite, easy way it get rejected, btw most submitted blogs are all the same.
So i have no trouble with new rules, but the ones who are going to follow those new 1.5 rules, have to keep in mind, they wont get listed at many linksites. But heay you can always try

[amadman]

My linklist is not really active but I know I would never list sites like this. I was one of those that did not allow hardcore on the warning and would not list sites with out warnings.

[HarryM]

Another thing that might be worth thinking about is if you use 40 recips with their matching categories, that's 80 out-going links on one page. Is that good?

[Useless]

Originally Posted by HarryM

Another thing that might be worth thinking about is if you use 40 recips with their matching categories, that's 80 out-going links on one page. Is that good?

Look at blogs. Hell, look at the amount of outgoing links on link lists, TGPs, any site - hundreds of outgoing links per page. Let's not forget that when you link out to 40+ link lists from your Pr0 warning pages, 40+ indexed and ranked link list category pages are LINKING BACK TO IT. It serves both sides, the submitter and the list owner.

Free site builders should be giving this concept some serious thought. Being allowed to place 40+ recips on a single page would make the average submitter's life so much more simple.

If someone doesn't think that a free site index could or should be a solid SEO page, then why would they care about how many recips you place on it? I really wish more people around here would think about this for awhile and give it some real thought. Think about how SEs might react to one of your free sites if 40+ link lists were linking to it. Yes, 40+ PR pages linking TO your free site, instead of 10-15 linking to a mirror that isn't going to get indexed because it's dupe content. That does you no favors and certainly doesn't do shit for the link lists which are leaking juice to it.

I've been discussing this with other people who agree, at least partially, with this new model. So far, we like the idea of more recips, fewer mirrors. But I think very few people are willing to lose the main page. I personally think a warning page on a free site is nonsense unless it's at the domain's root, but I've always felt that way. If anyone else has some input on furthering this discussion, other than telling me to fuck myself, please post your ideas and questions, or PM me if you wish. We'll probably end up creating a list of link lists which are willing to accept this partially modified model. Outside of a few notable exceptions, I'm betting that most link lists will eventually accept them. If I'm wrong, I'll close submits on my newer, better link list and only list HFS. I swear to the god of your choice.

[Waka-Jawaka]

Seems it would be easier to build one freesite with 40-50+ recip links then build several mirrors, especially if it would be one-link recip to LL domain root.
Well, one standart text recip table, no need to make all these mirrors, it may be the reason for fs builders to submit to a bunch of smaller LLs, they never submitted before.
I dont know, if major LLs would appreciate 40+ recip tables, but for smaller LLs it may be a chance to draw more quality freesite builders. No?

[HarryM]

It could look ok if you didn't have to link to category pages aswell.
Some examples: 1, 2, 3

[SheepGuy]

As a LL owner I'd love to be in a recip table with 39 other LL's. It would be good for me provided that none of the other recips were of the "Free Porn Here" variety, meaning they couldn't be considered blind links by anyone.
If the only change that comes out of this discussion is that, I'll be a happy dude.
As an occasional fs builder, I don't think about SEO at all when I build, but if I could put 40 recips on a site I'd submit it to 20 more sites than I submit to now.
About the warning page, I'd accept fs's without one, I accept galleries, so why not? As a fs builder I'd like to experiment with fs's without a warning page, but an extra gallery.

I'm open to change that makes sense, not all of kit's ideas makes sense to me, especially re the placement of the recip table, but some of his ideas are worth messing around with.

[Maj. Stress]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

Look at blogs. Hell, look at the amount of outgoing links on link lists, TGPs, any site - hundreds of outgoing links per page. Let's not forget that when you link out to 40+ link lists from your Pr0 warning pages, 40+ indexed and ranked link list category pages are LINKING BACK TO IT. It serves both sides, the submitter and the list owner.

There are huge differences in site structure and linking when comparing free sites to blogs, tgp or link lists. You really need to think about that subject a little more to see the light. Blogs, tgp and link lists are in constant change. Adding pages, adding links, etc. A free site does not. Therefore, it is not treated the same in the search engines eyes.

I have built a few free sites that were text rich and seo'd to the max. I did get good listings in the serps (a few #1) and noticed the link juice dropped as did the listings as they came off the 'new' listings in the link lists.

Did I forget anything?

[JohnnyR]

I'm confused... What's all the fuss about? Are we supposed to call GG daddy now? Is that it?

Originally Posted by borgivan

the same way I respect you as a "LL daddy"

Ya know, everybody's talking about how this would affect LLs.
WHAT LINKLISTS? THEY'RE ALL GONNA FUCKIN' DIE! Except the top 40 or so. You'd think some people would think twice... Is this really it? Is enough traffic leaking into too many smaller LLs that it's bothering some people out there? Or is it the fact that with mirror pages some folks can't be sure they're gonna be the ones ending up on the page google actually indexes. Or maybe the fact that the links are further down the page, instead of being the FIRST THING the bots see?

So basically what people wanna do is remove a sales page, right? The first one? The one where there's no content to catch the surfer's eye? The one that they actually HAVE to READ the text links on? Wadda ya know! Some of you might just be dirty lil pervs that can't hold their horses 1 click longer to get the pictures afterall. Am I the only one in this for the money? Not to mention it's the warning page the one people want removed - the page on which, not long ago, you weren't even allowed to show a half of dick in the corner of a small banner!!


I'm all for change, but change for a reason, not for the sake of changing. It basically boils down to this: you'd be removing 1 sales page for no (as far as *I* can see) good reason, because someone has to bring up a compelling motive YET!

This will either blow over in a week, either we're gonna have a split, in which case we're gonna see just which way is better! Either way, this smells like trouble for the submitter!

[Greenguy]

Kit? Comment?

[LD]

Originally Posted by SheepGuy

As a LL owner I'd love to be in a recip table with 39 other LL's.

Good point, and this could be of benefit to some of the newer, smaller list if their recip were placed with the big boys.

I have been rejected for having more than 16 recips at a couple of places, however this is rare and probably not a big consideration.

But what if you wanted to submit to more than 40 list...what if it were 100? I guess you're back to making mirrors...either that or have 100 recips per page. I usually submit to 64 to 68 list, so if 40 were the limit, I'd have to drop some or do a mirror, which is something this 1.5 thing is supposed to eliminate..

[Useless]

Originally Posted by JohnnyR

So basically what people wanna do is remove a sales page, right? The first one? The one where there's no content to catch the surfer's eye? The one that they actually HAVE to READ the text links on? Wadda ya know! Some of you might just be dirty lil pervs that can't hold their horses 1 click longer to get the pictures afterall. Am I the only one in this for the money? Not to mention it's the warning page the one people want removed - the page on which, not long ago, you weren't even allowed to show a half of dick in the corner of a small banner!!

Don't concern yourself with kit's ideas. Kit hasn't ever returned to the thread to help us understand his points. If changes do happen, I can see only two true changes:
1. We swap out the table of 15 recips for a list of recips of whatever length.
2. Loosened restrictions on the number of ad blocks. The layout of advertisements should be determined by the design of the site, instead of the current manner in which the design is based on a restricted number of ads.

Originally Posted by Waka-Jawaka

Well, one standart text recip table, no need to make all these mirrors, it may be the reason for fs builders to submit to a bunch of smaller LLs, they never submitted before.
I dont know, if major LLs would appreciate 40+ recip tables, but for smaller LLs it may be a chance to draw more quality freesite builders. No?

That's a what couple of us were thinking as well. Those of us who don't want to build mirrors would finally have good reason to submit to many more link lists. There are people who submit to 200+ link lists, and those folks will still have to mirror, but the vast majority of submitters don't go to that extreme.

Originally Posted by HarryM

It could look ok if you didn't have to link to category pages aswell.

Your samples are much nicer than the one I was working on. Basically all anyone would be doing with the structure of this happy medium free site is building the same old warning page they have been, but adding a recip column around 150-200px wide to one side or the other, and dropping their current recip table. Can you imagine how nice life would be for those who include their recips via SSI? If they submit to only 50 link lists, they could make global changes by editing only one file.

Originally Posted by Maj. Stress

Did I forget anything?

A point.

Listen, none of us plan on forcing anyone to change the way in which they build their sites. You aren't going to wake up tomorrow and see that Such and Such Link List now only accepts free sites with 50 other recip links on them. I believe that there is a bunch of submitters who will gladly jump on this slightly altered format and then others will realize how stupid it is to mirror when they can build just the single site and submit that everywhere rather than screwing around with mirrors.

Maybe this enlarged recip grouping will help reduce the sting the next time submitters are told that they must include more content to be listed. That's on the horizon. Of course, not from me. I still accept free sites built with 20 screen caps.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by KG Gary

From a design point of view, I'd love to see some change allowed in the way I build freesites. After a few hundred, even the most original designs look like overused templates.
Change is welcome as long as we make sure the changes benefit everyone involved as much as possible. I'm not convinced that this new idea does that.

A few questions:

1. What happens to all of those smaller/newer link lists out there that don't make the 40-50 limit? Do we just drop them and the good relationships we've built up?
I'm not happy to do that, sorry.

2. How would a link list owner know if mirrors are created?

I'm sorry I missed this earlier. (I've appointed myself the official spokesman for the campaign of modifying kit's modifications.)

1. I assume that those of you who submit to more than whatever the mysterious cut-off limit will be, will need to continue mirroring their sites. Fortunately, you'll have to create fewer mirrors.
2. Link list owners won't know who is mirroring anymore than they do now. But there is the presumption that many submitters would no longer need to mirror simply because they don't submit to that many lists.

I also realize that there are many, many submitters who have spent an enormous amount of time gathering and building recip tables and they aren't going to be very happy about tossing away all of that hard work. Therefore, any transition to a changed format should happen slowly, like evolution, rather than an overnight swap out.

LATE EDIT: Here's a basic mock-up of an index page. http://www.theactusreus.com/schlampe/test.html Assume that the rest of the free site would be business as usual. Who is harmed or hindered by that?

[CrazySy]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

LATE EDIT: Here's a basic mock-up of an index page. http://www.theactusreus.com/schlampe/test.html Assume that the rest of the free site would be business as usual. Who is harmed or hindered by that?

Are you a freaking mind reader?

I am just finishing a site with similar layout index page (but with only 18 recips )

[amadman]

I personally think a warning page on a free site is nonsense unless it's at the domain's root, but I've always felt that way. If anyone else has some input on furthering this discussion.....

Here were my thoughts on linking to the warning page:

Sure I already had a warning page on my site so my links may not have needed a warning too. But by linking to the warning pages I am pointing the SE's to the warning page also and giving it the most weight. I guess you could say I felt a responsibility to do so. If the SE wants to index and list things through out the site then that is its issue to deal with.

As for recips, why limit people to just one way to put recips when the current model allows that way and many others?

[amadman]

Other than the hardcore banner and the jibberish text I would have listed sites like this http://www.theactusreus.com/schlampe/test.html

If the recips were LL titles and not a bunch of blind links. And the rest of the site was clean.