20 LLs no woorway vs. 100+ LLs and many doorways

[neveremail]

Whats best?

1. Having a single site with no doorways and just submit to say 20LLs or
2. submitting to 100+ LLs and having say 10 doorways.

How much do you think it effects SE hits to your freesites using 1. and is this benefit worth it as you will just submitting to 20LLs so losing LL traffic.

Or is the fact your getting a total of 100+ Link backs to your domain if you use 2. making it better for your site on the whole in terms of SEO anyway?

[Magnoody]

Originally Posted by neveremail

Or is the fact your getting a total of 100+ Link backs to your domain if you use 2. making it better for your site on the whole in terms of SEO anyway?

If that was right I would have coupied a page 100000000000000000000000 times and linked them all to one page with a keyword. |cool|

damn,I would have been on top of google for every adult keyword

[RedCherry]

What search engines don't like is doorways that have exactly the same content, they see it is spam. Believe me, I know, I got busted for this from Google years ago, when I had the same link page on multiple domains and they banned about 75% of the domains.

If you do multiple doorways, however, and change up the text, graphics, etc. on each, it could be an advantage.

Lets say you are pushing big boobs make one doorway optimizing /big-boobs/, the next /big-tits/, the next /big-breasts/, etc and change the wording for each, maybe use a graphic that has the name changed for each, and move around the elements on your index page, so it doesn't look like they are all blatant doorways.

I think it is the long-term question, what are you trying to do. Get a lot of traffic off link lists (short or long term) or get less traffic and more from SE's?

I was in Beta Brigade years ago, one of the things they had us build was a "spider trap" where we built 40 different "pages" (or sites) where each was optimized for a different keyword phrase, and you interlink them all, then link to them from the index page. You named folders, images, pages, etc. with these keywords. It worked very well for me, I got a lot of sales off that one domain for about 3 months. (after awhile, if you don't update pages, you rank lower in SE's FYI)

I never submitted it to a LL, just to SE's. It took forever to build though, lol.

You could do the same thing with your freesites. Easy to change image names in ACDSee, and easy to search/replace those names in most html programs. It would be more work, you are not just slapping a new index page on your site, but the bottom line might improve in the long run when you site ranks for all those different keyword combos.

Did I answer your question?

[neveremail]

Originally Posted by Magnoody

If that was right I would have coupied a page 100000000000000000000000 times and linked them all to one page with a keyword. |cool|

damn,I would have been on top of google for every adult keyword

What does having 20 Linkbacks to your domain compared to having 100+ linkbacks to your domain do with copying a page 10000000000000000000000s of times?? The links are from the LLs not withing my own site.

[neveremail]

Originally Posted by RedCherry

What search engines don't like is doorways that have exactly the same content, they see it is spam. Believe me, I know, I got busted for this from Google years ago, when I had the same link page on multiple domains and they banned about 75% of the domains.

Thats different because the link pages were on different domains. Replicated content on different domains is handled by google a lot differently than having replicated content within your own site. I've been asking around and everyone has a different opinion on the effect of duplicated content and doorways on a single site. Some say they get penalised and some say it makes little difference and google just chooses the "most relevant" duplicate to list in SERPs. For me it seems to be the latter.

If you do multiple doorways, however, and change up the text, graphics, etc. on each, it could be an advantage.

This is very true, if you have seven duplicates you can easily turn them into 7 individual freesites which will definately help SE. But In the time it took to change 7 freesite duplicates you could have spent that time making more freesites. And if the doorway pages have little effect on SERPs then making more freesites will be more benificial than changing the content on duplicates.

I think it is the long-term question, what are you trying to do. Get a lot of traffic off link lists (short or long term) or get less traffic and more from SE's?

Well my aim is to get the most money from my efforts. More traffic from both LLs and SEs to my freesites means more money. So i'm trying to figure out the best way to construct and submit my freesites that will bring me the most money in the long term.
So if making only one doorway and submitting to 20 LLs would bring me more cash then making many doorways and submitting to many LLs in the long term then I will just submit to 20.

Did I answer your question?

Every opinion will help make me an informed decision so thanks. And you have brought up some good discussion points

Whats everyone else got to say???

[Halfdeck]

1000 incoming links are worthless if the links point to a page Google considers spam. If Google chooses an index.html with small LL linking to it over an index.html with links from penisbot, LOR, etc, then you're shit out of luck...I wouldn't leave it up to Google to decide that for me.

To customize your free sites to make them appear unique to SEs seems to be a waste of time to me.

One suggestion I saw to use robots.txt to prevent Google from indexing the duplicate content...so you'd get nice SE traffic off your primary index.html and then pull nice LL traffic off the duplicate doorways.

Personally, I'd build 1 site and submit to 20. The 20 LL will give you say 30,000 uniques over a few months and then 5,000 or whatever from SE a month.

If you spent time submitting to the other 80, lets be optimistic and say you'd get 5,000 uniques from them a month. Still, if you had to choose between 5k from google or 5k from LLs...which would you choose?

[Magnoody]

Originally Posted by neveremail

What does having 20 Linkbacks to your domain compared to having 100+ linkbacks to your domain do with copying a page 10000000000000000000000s of times?? The links are from the LLs not withing my own site.

1- Interlinking between site pages affects your rankings.
2- It's not only no of links, It's all about the quality of links.
RedCherry has somes it all up



Btw RedCherry who was your captain in the brigade?

[neveremail]

Thanks halfdeck thats some nice info.

Some questions I'd like to ask though:

1. "Incoming links are worthless if the links point to a page Google considers spam."
If google ignores those links to doorway pages then they must also ignore the outgoing links from the doorways too. If so then why do Link Lists allow you to list them on doorways in the first place?
Link popularity and SE rankings of the smaller LLs does improve overtime and I would imagine there linkbacks will be on doorway pages because no-one will include them in their precious 20. This would lead me to beleive that in fact google does take into account the links to doorway pages. But I'm open to more comments on this and maybe some examples

2. "If Google chooses an index.html with small LL linking to it over an index.html with links from penisbot, LOR, etc, then you're shit out of luck...I wouldn't leave it up to Google to decide that for me."
What does it matter which one google decides to rank in SEs. It only matters to the unlucky Link lists who are not on that doorway. But it certainly does not matter to you because your adverts are all exactly the same no matter which doorway gets listed.

Saying that I would want the version of the freesite that I list on my own site to be listed above the version I submit to LLs as it has more adverts etc.

3. "One suggestion I saw to use robots.txt to prevent Google from indexing the duplicate content...so you'd get nice SE traffic off your primary index.html and then pull nice LL traffic off the duplicate doorways."
Thats a good idea but if LLs found out Im sure they might ban you for it as I'm sure many want their Recips to be found by google.
But if it was allowed it would be a good way to make sure the ad intensive version of the freesite which I list was in the rankings and not the version I submit to LLs.

It may however be a bad idea if preventing google indexing the duplicates also means that the inbound links are then disregarded by google thus reducing your sites overall link popularity.
This of course assumes that those inbound links were worth anything to begin with.

4. "If you spent time submitting to the other 80, lets be optimistic and say you'd get 5,000 uniques from them a month. Still, if you had to choose between 5k from google or 5k from LLs...which would you choose?"
Submitting to the extra 150 LLs compared to 20 takes about an extra 30min to an hour each day so its not too time consuming.
Checking my stats I would double the figure 5k for traffic that I get from smaller LLs.
Even if you use doorways you will still get SE traffic. The question is how much does using doorways actually reduce your SE traffic.

[neveremail]

Originally Posted by Magnoody

1- Interlinking between site pages affects your rankings.
2- It's not only no of links, It's all about the quality of links.
RedCherry has somes it all up



Btw RedCherry who was your captain in the brigade?

1 - Thats very true but how is it relevant in this case??
2 - Again very true. But the links coming from the smaller LLs could be worth something and help improve the overall link poularity of your sites even if their worth is small.

[Magnoody]

1 - Thats very true but how is it relevant in this case??

I meant that the no of backlinks doesn't mean that a website will get a high rank.

2 - Again very true. But the links coming from the smaller LLs could be worth something and help improve the overall link poularity of your sites even if their worth is small.

Sure. getting more back links is always a credit

[RedCherry]

Originally Posted by Magnoody

Btw RedCherry who was your captain in the brigade?

Oh man, I think it was Sleazy Bear, but I can't remember. I think Haoui is the one who wrote that spider food exercise.

I don't know everything about SE's by a long shot, but it is great discussion.

[Jel]

My way of thinking for what its worth, and I'd love to hear other views on this -

doorway pages named keyword-or-phrase.html in the same folder as the freesite, all pointing to the same mainpage, so for example:

index.html
big-tits-blonde.html
big-boobs-blonde.html
big-natural-tits.html
big-natural-boobs.html

all point to
mainpage > galleries 1 & 2

Keywords targetted on those doorway pages are changed slightly, 12 recips (for example) changes over 50% of the html code also, with the added advantage of a lot of different class C ip's leading to that mainpage.

So, each doorway gets indexed as the keywords/html have changed substantially, plus more weight carried to the mainpage of the site in question, leading that to carry more 'weight' also.

Basically what Red Cherry is saying I believe (correct me if I'm wrong Red Cherry )

I've very recently started changing the format of my freesites to use that system, one index page only, and LLs that accept doorway pages now taking place of those that don't accept them, so the 'heavy hitters' get the index, any others that aren't quite up there with the big guys but don't accept doorways I've had to drop from my submissions (and I'd love to put them back).

[Sexvilly]

if everybody was ok with what-ever.html as an index with their recip.. i would go this way.. for now, if they require doorways - i put big guys on index and promote that index on my sites, etc. others go on doorways..

and I usually see a doorway of a free site get indexed in SE under the keywords targeted.. depends who list you, etc.

[Linkster]

First - Im glad to see people thinking along these lines - unfortunately you are all giving Google a heck of alot more credit that its due.
If the pages are all on one domain - yeah Google will pick one and call the rest dupes - if you dont change the pages - if you change them AND - change the inside pages for each copy of the site - then you might have a chance of getting more than one copy in Google.

as far as the robots text thingie - you are submitting free sites to a LL - if the LL bans you because of this then they are not a LL - they are trying to build a SE hub - granted we would like to get some SE benefit but it sure isnt the main reason to run a LL - or make decisions on listing someone - there are definitely much better ways for a LL to get the phrases they want in a SE - which is why after testing niche recips we went back to the single recip.

I will repeat what I have said in other threads about this - the sites you submit to LLs should NOT be the copies you are trying to get in the SEs - a site that specifically is built for the SEs will do much better and can have a few more aggressive ways of getting surfers to buy - of course thats just my way of doing things but it seems that it has worked well for a bunch of us over the years

[neveremail]

Originally Posted by Jel

My way of thinking for what its worth, and I'd love to hear other views on this -

doorway pages named keyword-or-phrase.html in the same folder as the freesite, all pointing to the same mainpage, so for example:

index.html
big-tits-blonde.html
big-boobs-blonde.html
big-natural-tits.html
big-natural-boobs.html

all point to
mainpage > galleries 1 & 2

Keywords targetted on those doorway pages are changed slightly, 12 recips (for example) changes over 50% of the html code also, with the added advantage of a lot of different class C ip's leading to that mainpage.

So, each doorway gets indexed as the keywords/html have changed substantially, plus more weight carried to the mainpage of the site in question, leading that to carry more 'weight' also.

Basically what Red Cherry is saying I believe (correct me if I'm wrong Red Cherry )

I've very recently started changing the format of my freesites to use that system, one index page only, and LLs that accept doorway pages now taking place of those that don't accept them, so the 'heavy hitters' get the index, any others that aren't quite up there with the big guys but don't accept doorways I've had to drop from my submissions (and I'd love to put them back).

That is what I was thinking the best compromise is too.

To add to that maybe putting each doorway in its own folder may be benificial.

The added weight to the mainpage and gallery pages is definately a bonus. Even if you made some substantial changes to each doorway do you still think you could get caught?

A problem for me is that I would like to have the version of the freesite that I list on my own site (which has more ads, links to toplists etc on it) to appear in SE results over the link list version. But that would again bring back the whole duplicate content and doorway issue which your system pretty much gets rid of. So maybe your system is the best compromise.

But Linkster said that he made a version for SEs and a version for LLs so it would be intersting to hear how he makes it.

[neveremail]

Originally Posted by Linkster

First - Im glad to see people thinking along these lines - unfortunately you are all giving Google a heck of alot more credit that its due.
If the pages are all on one domain - yeah Google will pick one and call the rest dupes - if you dont change the pages - if you change them AND - change the inside pages for each copy of the site - then you might have a chance of getting more than one copy in Google.

as far as the robots text thingie - you are submitting free sites to a LL - if the LL bans you because of this then they are not a LL - they are trying to build a SE hub - granted we would like to get some SE benefit but it sure isnt the main reason to run a LL - or make decisions on listing someone - there are definitely much better ways for a LL to get the phrases they want in a SE - which is why after testing niche recips we went back to the single recip.

I will repeat what I have said in other threads about this - the sites you submit to LLs should NOT be the copies you are trying to get in the SEs - a site that specifically is built for the SEs will do much better and can have a few more aggressive ways of getting surfers to buy - of course thats just my way of doing things but it seems that it has worked well for a bunch of us over the years

Hey Linkster I was hoping you would pop in.

From the other people who I respect as been very experienced in SEs they have also said that worrying too much anout this shit is giving google more credit than they deserve.

Still I'd like to ask you a few questions to try and clear some things up:

1. Is any LL owner against the robots.txt thingy??

2. If you use the robots.txt thingy will it disregard the incoming links to the pages you have stated are not to be indexed??

3. Would this be a good approach - put in the robots.txt that all the mirrors submitted to LLs are not to be indexed and only the version of the freesite you list on your own site (which is more ad intensive) is to be indexed for SEs.
This gets rid of any duplicate content/doorway issues (although these mught not be important anyway) and ensures that the ad intensive version of the freesite gets listed in SEs and not the LL version.
But would you have got a higher ranking if you had allowed all versions to be indexed??

4. How do you do it Linkster??

5. I want bill to come here and offer his opinion

[Jel]

Well my own experience shows pretty much what Linkster is saying - google rarely lists a standard freesite anywhere near high enough in SERPS to worry to much, yahoo on the other hand seems to like freesites a lot more, and all the pages within it. A standard freesite that I build for LLs I also build for yahoo.

I'm talking about changing 1 page per freesite, the warning page. If your version for SES that you list on your own hub has links to toplists, backlinks from toplists, different text geared towards different keywords etc. etc. then imho it's a completely different page and wouldn't be penalised for anything.

And listen to Linkster, he knows his stuff

[Surfn]

Originally Posted by Linkster

First - Im glad to see people thinking along these lines - unfortunately you are all giving Google a heck of alot more credit that its due.
If the pages are all on one domain - yeah Google will pick one and call the rest dupes - if you dont change the pages - if you change them AND - change the inside pages for each copy of the site - then you might have a chance of getting more than one copy in Google.

as far as the robots text thingie - you are submitting free sites to a LL - if the LL bans you because of this then they are not a LL - they are trying to build a SE hub - granted we would like to get some SE benefit but it sure isnt the main reason to run a LL - or make decisions on listing someone - there are definitely much better ways for a LL to get the phrases they want in a SE - which is why after testing niche recips we went back to the single recip.

I will repeat what I have said in other threads about this - the sites you submit to LLs should NOT be the copies you are trying to get in the SEs - a site that specifically is built for the SEs will do much better and can have a few more aggressive ways of getting surfers to buy - of course thats just my way of doing things but it seems that it has worked well for a bunch of us over the years

It seems we are on the same page once again

[neveremail]

Originally Posted by Jel

Well my own experience shows pretty much what Linkster is saying - google rarely lists a standard freesite anywhere near high enough in SERPS to worry to much, yahoo on the other hand seems to like freesites a lot more, and all the pages within it. A standard freesite that I build for LLs I also build for yahoo.

I'm talking about changing 1 page per freesite, the warning page. If your version for SES that you list on your own hub has links to toplists, backlinks from toplists, different text geared towards different keywords etc. etc. then imho it's a completely different page and wouldn't be penalised for anything.

And listen to Linkster, he knows his stuff

Yeah I followed what you were saying and i think it is a good idea.

But like I said if you make a version to list on your own site then it does complicated things and making it completely unique may be needed. but again this takes time. As at the moment its quite similar.

Compare:
1. Submitted to LLs
http://www.paradisebikinis.com/asian-panty-girls3/
2. Listed on my site and submitted anywhere without rules e.g forums, link dumps etc.
http://www.paradisebikinis.com/asian-panty-girls/

But the time it takes to redo version 2 to make it unique I could just say fuck it I'll list the main index that I submit to the big LLs on my site and spend the time saved working on SEO for something else.

Thats is why I like the robots.txt idea because it would ensure that only the ad intensive version gets in SEs and its quick and easy to do. But I would be grateful if someone could answer those questions I asked in the last post

And yeah I think Linkster knows his shit.

[Surfn]

I submit one site to the LL's on my index page only. I don't do doorways to hundreds of lists. Never have never will. Why? Besides pissing people off and pissing the search engines off. It's just a poor business plan IMO.

[Magnoody]

Originally Posted by RedCherry

Oh man, I think it was Sleazy Bear, but I can't remember. I think Haoui is the one who wrote that spider food exercise.

I don't know everything about SE's by a long shot, but it is great discussion.

haha Haui used to sleep with google

[Linkster]

neveremail - what Jel said - just put some toplists/linkdump recips on the pages and you have a completely different site - plus - just an observation I would get a heck of a lot more aggressive with that site for the SEs - any kind of nasty trick goes on those as far as Im concerned

[RedCherry]

Originally Posted by Magnoody

haha Haui used to sleep with google

I learned alot about SE's from him, Voltar, Slider, and a few people in the non-adult world.