Watched "Walmart, The Cost of Low Prices"

[RawAlex]

Jim, honestly, is it Wal-mart's fault that they did better? It is their fault that they have developed a retail strategy that is most attractive to the buyers?

Is there any reasons why they should be punished for being the best?

Alex

[ecchi]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Ecchi, this movie didn't get played much in America, but it has found a welcoming audience in Europe that it didn't find here. There seems to be some sort of satisfaction in finding that "the best of America" could be the worst.

I got this deal with my local multiplex, I pay a monthly subscription rather than an individual "per visit" price, so I tend to go to the cinema several times a week. I also get several film magazines, and I am a member of "The British Film Institute". But I had never heard about this movie until Jim mentioned it. You are probably right in that it is popular in art houses aimed at students and left over hippies, but very wrong in saying "it has found a welcoming audience in Europe". If it is showing here, it is a minor movie playing in a few specialist cinemas. The last major "US bashing" movie to be a big hit over here was Team America, which throws the shit at all sides. It was also hilarious if you can stand the shit slinging (and whichever side you are on, you are going to be offended, it sort of says that the war in Iraq is wrong, and everyone who disagrees with it is also wrong, and that Michael Moore is right, but everyone who agrees with Michael Moore is an asshole)

Actually the opinion in Britain on Walmart tends to be less about human rights and more about the fact that Walmart is crippling the American balance of payments with it's excessive reliance on imports, and when the American economy eventually collapses and you go 1930's again, Walmart will be one of the main causes.

(And the fact that most of Europe sees America's imminent economical collapse as a "when" rather than an "if" is because the majority of Americans are believed (by Europeans) to have a "So Walmart do this, but what can you do? They are cheaper" attitude.)

[Jim]

The internal memo I posted is 27 pages long so I know you didn't read it Alex.

I also notice that you skipped the question about a lawsuit.

Here is a quick article...
Don't trust the website, just trust where the article came from...
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0210-13.htm

[ecchi]

Sorry, got a bit confused, is this film one of Michael Moore's, or are you saying it is like his movies?

[Jim]

Originally Posted by ecchi

Sorry, got a bit confused, is this film one of Michael Moore's, or are you saying it is like his movies?

Really, neither...

[ecchi]

Thanks

[RawAlex]

Jim, 27 page internal memos aren't something I want to spend a whole bunch of time reading without reason. You may want to bring one or two of the best points here and start discussion on them.

As for the lawsuit, considering that there would be little upside for Walmart to fight such a lawsuit (get a mutlibillion dollar settlement from a filmmaker that doesn't have 2 cents to his name). In all reality, it would likely give this guy a forum in which he could bring more disgruntled employees into the public light to diss the company.

You didn't notice that he only interviewed disgruntled employees, and none of the "gruntled" ones? If the personal officer was so upset about Walmart, why was he there 17 years?

ecchi, this is a "moore like" movie. I suspect this guy spent a little too much time watching "Roger & me".

As for the "welcome audience", it isn't a question of your local cineplex playing the movie, but that some film festivals and movie review houses have made a big deal over it. These are the people who in influence the public's perception of a film as worthy or not worthy.

Alex

[Jim]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Jim, 27 page internal memos aren't something I want to spend a whole bunch of time reading without reason. You may want to bring one or two of the best points here and start discussion on them.

As for the lawsuit, considering that there would be little upside for Walmart to fight such a lawsuit (get a mutlibillion dollar settlement from a filmmaker that doesn't have 2 cents to his name). In all reality, it would likely give this guy a forum in which he could bring more disgruntled employees into the public light to diss the company.

First, the memo is how their crappy practices are being brought to the light of day and a way to change their practices even thought it would be expensive.

Second...
Are you kidding me about the lawsuit. If someone is spreading slander about one of the biggest corporations in the world, a lawsuit would clear the air. It would prove that nothing said in that movie was true. Of course, it's not slander if it's true.

[Jim]

Oh, the movie did have plenty of employees that seemed ok getting screwed. They filmed someone with shopping carts in the walmart parking lot saying "that seems about right" when asked about low wages and the inability to live on what he makes without help from welfare.

[Jim]

I've got to get going so...take your time, think about the non-lawsuit, breeze the memo and I will talk to you tomorrow.

[ecchi]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

As for the "welcome audience", it isn't a question of your local cineplex playing the movie, but that some film festivals and movie review houses have made a big deal over it. These are the people who in influence the public's perception of a film as worthy or not worthy.

No as a general rule film festivals tend to get little publicity outside a small anorak type grouping (again mostly students and hippies). If I were bothered I could probably find as many French people who had seen a movie that championed America and had convinced them that America was great, but that would not show that France in general had learnt to like America. If you want to influence people over here it's got to either be a blockbuster movie (like Team America) or a prime time TV show.

The fact is that Europe has become a bit "bored" with the USA, and although a lot of people tend to look down on America (it tends to be thought of as being a slightly "backward" country full of people who are a little "less bright" than the rest of the world, and also a bit of a "bully"), but that has nothing to do with this film, it has been the European view of America for decades. Apart from Team America, which was successful because of the popularity of South Park, and the fact that it was a very funny film in it's own right, "America Bashing" movies tend to just get watched by the minority who think it is "hip" and ignored by the majority of the public.

[biftek]

lets face it , working in chain stores like that , you don't have to be an einstein to work in those stores , heck they could train monkeys do those jobs , want a higher paying job , get better education

The long and short of it is that you will never become wealthy by working hard and saving. You become wealthy by exploiting others, and that's all there is too it.

[docholly]

Watch the movie and you will never shop there again. A lot of hidden cameras and nothing like a Moore documentary. All facts that can easily be proven.

I haven't shopped at Walmart in probably at least 6 - 8 years. Not that i think Target or KMart are so much better but i do feel i am doing my part to NOT contribute to the Wally-world mentality.

Virginia.. come shopping in Vegas, we'll do lunch!!!

[RedCherry]

Originally Posted by docholly

...i do feel i am doing my part to NOT contribute to the Wally-world mentality.

Virginia.. come shopping in Vegas, we'll do lunch!!!

Sounds like a plan! I never shopped at WalMart much until I moved out here, although anything I'm not in a hurry for I tend to shop online and get as much as possible, or wait for a trip into Vegas.

[emmanuelle]

Originally Posted by Jim

Oh yeah...one more thing called a peasant policy. While new employees sign all the papers to work there, they sign a peasant policy. This is a life insurance policy that goes to Walmart when the employee dies. So, after a few more years, they will be making money just from people working there and dying one day.

This was an issue brought up in one of Moore's books. Many companies do this apparently, not only Walmart.

Like most works of 'non-fiction', one should view with objectivity, as the producers likely did not. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but today's society seems to prefer the more salacious view for entertainment purposes.

btw- Walmart is China's EIGHTH largest trading partner. China will do whatever is necessary to maintain that relationship. I wonder if there is an opportunity in this to encourage them to improve their human rights record?

[RawAlex]

Emma, you will certainly remember this: In a smaller city in Quebec, they were able to get a union organized for the Walmart workers. This would be the first unionized Walmart in the world. Once the union put forth it's contract proposal, Walmart announced that the store would be closed.

On the surface, it looks like "anti-union action". But in reality Walmart cannot keep the lowest prices and pay higher wages and deal with restrictive work rules. It is the nature of the game - low prices come from somewhere, Walmart is making a profit, so I would have to guess that it comes from lower costs, great automation, and keeping employee salaries and benefits in line with being a discount retailer.

Trying to turn a job as a cashier or a shelf stocker into a "house, two cars, 2.3 kids, cat dog, white picket fence" is just not going to happen. If being a Walmart greeter is your idea of a career, then you need to adjust your lifestyle expectations as a result. Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense.

"peasant policies" are a fairly common situation, created by preferential tax laws for certain types of investments. It isn't a nice thing to look at from a personal stand point (you are worth more to your company dead than alive is the common phrasing, not really true), but it is something that is created by the law, and which could be eliminated by simple changes to the tax laws. Congress has not seen fit to fix this, so therefore it must be legal and acceptable.

I think it could be looked at as an interesting way for a company to recoup the investment made in training an employee.

Alex

[fetish1]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Trying to turn a job as a cashier or a shelf stocker into a "house, two cars, 2.3 kids, cat dog, white picket fence" is just not going to happen. If being a Walmart greeter is your idea of a career, then you need to adjust your lifestyle expectations as a result. Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense.

I have to second this, and from the looks of things at our local Wallmart, 85% of the employee pool (non-managerial) is made up of college students and seniors who are looking for some part time hours to supplement their social security benefits (and or retirement income from past jobs).

[Lenny]

I bought this DVD when it came out as well. It didn't tell me alot I didn't already know but it certainly reinforced the way I already felt about the company.

At first my wife and I were going to boycott Wal-Mart.....then I did some research trying to figure out where the "labor friendly" place to shop was.
Turns out all the "big box" retailers are engaging in the same sort of practices, in an effort to keep up with the Waltons.

So really we don't have much of a choice when it comes to where to shop. We live in a "right to work" state so there are no grocery chains or general merchandisers with union employees here.

While I am appalled at the way the Wal Marts of the world do business, about all I can do about it is make a contribution to the AFL CIO and vote Democrat. *shrugs shoulders*

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by biftek

lets face it , working in chain stores like that , you don't have to be an einstein to work in those stores , heck they could train monkeys do those jobs , want a higher paying job , get better education
.

I could say the same thing about getting a job in a GM plant in Detroit. Most of those guys have just a high school education, the rest of the training is provided by the company.
They make $27 an hour.

It doesn't take alot of brains to be a flight attendant or a baggage handler either but those people get paid well because they have the right to bargain collectively for their wages and benefits.

If Wal-Mart is allowed to use its buying power to get lower prices from suppliers then why can't Wal-Mart's workers use their "collective labor power" to get better wages and benefits?
Seems like a double standard to me.

[biftek]

well bettter education can mean many things , could mean to read the fine print , could mean to check the jobsearch alot more often , could mean networking with others to find better positions, can also mean to know their rights , education is no just grades on a piece of paper

the workers can use there collective labor power , all they need to do is form together and call a mass strike , at the end of the day the workers have the power to run the company , without them the store would turn to shit , sure they can fire the lot of them but that takes time and money

if the workers can hold off long enough with no source of income they can change things

walmart and the like use the same tactic when they are bargaining better deals , they walk in with there power and money saying we want this at X price or we will take our business elsewhere( ok might be more to it then take ,but you get the idea)

most established unions are crap anyway

i don't know abou others but with my jobs
I have always had the right to pick and choose where, when and for how much I work.
I make the decision at interview time whether or not I work for someone.
At no stage am I over a barrel to take the job, but if I do I'd better be prepared to accept the wages and conditions on offer or go elsewhere.
If the potential employer can't see the value I possess and be prepered to pay for it, then they're not worth working for - simply walk away.

[RawAlex]

Lenny, airlines and car companies are interesting choices. In both cases, they are industries where the existing "big guys" are all suffering because of thing they have given during past labor negotiations.

In GM's case, legacy labor costs (the cost of retiree benefits) are costing the company huge amounts of money each year, which would be the difference between profit and loss in most cases.

In airline cases, many, many of those companies have gone bankrupt in the US over the last 10 years, and the usual solution is MASSIVE rollbacks in employee wages and benefits.

If they put those costs into tickets or cars, we would be paying 30% to 50% more.

If every Walmart employee wanted to make stocking shelves into a family supporting career, I would suspect that prices at the store would go up rather dramatically (because not only would wages go up, but because shop rules would probably double the amount of staff required to run the stores).

Alex

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Lenny, airlines and car companies are interesting choices. In both cases, they are industries where the existing "big guys" are all suffering because of thing they have given during past labor negotiations.

I disagree totally.

The reason GM is losing money is because of bad management. They put too much faith into gas guzzling SUV's and when oil prices spiked they were screwed. Same thing with Ford.
The car companies that are flourishing right now are the ones that got into hybrids early and whose normal lineup of cars are fuel efficient.

The Japanese workers have very strong labor rights and wages, as do the American workers who work in the Japanese factories here.

Southwest and Jetblue both have a unionized workforce yet they remain profitable.
The legacy airlines are still using circa 1960 business models built around the hub and spoke system. That's why they're losing money.

There are plenty of major retailers in the country who have a unionized workforce and they remain profitable.

If the government would do their job and raise minimum wage to 8.50 an hour then I'd agree that a union probably wouldn't be necessary for a company like Wal-Mart. However this congress and president won't do that because they're in the back pocket of companies like Wal-Mart.

So I think the workers should be able to get together and bargain for wages collectively.

[Lenny]

Well nobody can say that this documentary isn't having an effect
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060223/...rt_health_care

[pindilly]

I thought I might add to this pissing contest... I only have 2 points...

The first point is the slogan used by old man Sam when he started Sam's clubs and walmarts... The store was all american made products... after old man Sam's death ... Corperate Walton found better profit in international trade and markets... as well as labor...

and from personal experience... working at Florida's largest distrobution facility... supplying the stores located in most of the southeast region ... they have NO climate control and being right to work state... it is not manditory to provide heat or air... the quota for ALL package, shipping, or recieving departments is 110% ... if you get less then your 110% quote in your work day , you recieve a written warning, then a dock in pay, then suspension, then if you dont maintain at least 100% (which I think is the only possible quota that could be filled) your fired.

I worked as a forklift operater in shipping and made 8.25 per hour on 3rd shift, 8.25 was the shift pay increase from 7 per hour. after 6 months you were "eligible" for "up to" 1.00 of a raise till your 1 year anniversary. I was there for 4 months, got told my qouta was to low. I quit after my written warning for having a 102% quota.
The turnover ratio there was very high as a new crew starts every tuesday, 10 to 12 people. I was the last new employee till the next tuesday.

anyone who thinks walmart is a good thing ... needs to apply and work there... see for yourself...

[RawAlex]

Lenny, you might want to read this:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/ma...gmpr-m18.shtml

In the case of GM, $1800 out of every car sold goes to paying those costs.

Most people don't realize, but when GM or a Ford closes a plant, they are often stuck paying upwards to 80% of the salary costs anyway for years to come. There is very little flexibility in the process.

GM's sales and market share have dropped massively in the last 30 years, but they are still supporting the retirement benefits and (rapidly increasing) medical costs. Just last year, they have moved from 5.2 to 5.8 BILLION dollars. That change alone would cover 25% of the losses last year. Those costs continue to spiral and they are not going to go away until GM goes bankrupt, which is a solid possiblity.

Walmart would be non-functional with $15/hour stockboys and $20/hour fork lift drivers, especially if there were shop rules and legacy retirement costs to cover in the future. The impact at the cash register would kill (see K-mart).

Pindilly, I don't think anyone here is suggesting Walmart is a good career choice. Your experience with a tough work situation combined with (often over done) right to work laws means that it sucks ass. However, the truth is there, 10-12 new people come in every week to take a swing at it. That says enough.

Alex