Need help /raided and computers seized

[weirdharold]

Alex, after rereading my last post to you, let me state that I did not mean for it to appear as a personal attack on you..... and am thankful you didn't respond as if it was.

I do have to agree that something smells very fishy about what little we know about this situation...

one: according to webwoman.. the investigators claimed to have come with warrant in hand, but refused to produce it upon request (which it should not have been neccessary to request it... should have been the first thing they did upon contact... hand it over) which smells pretty bad in itself.

two: the guy (that brought you to the conclusion that she has traffic flowing through her residence) walking up through the cops *money in hand* speaking out asking for his spanking. What kind of person would do this with cops all over the place? I know a lot of rather Hmmmm... how do I say crazy fu**ers, and for the life of me I don't think even the craziest would walk through cops to pay to get a spanking. So that smell a heap of rotten fish to me....

I do not trust the law enforcement community... they lie, cheat, and break laws... in the name of upholding the law..... They are sworn to up hold the law ... so to me their lying, cheating, and most of all BREAKING THE LAW makes them worse than the lowest snake in the grass.

Being a Libertarian, I basically believe a person has the right to do anything they want to do... as long as it does not interfere with the right of someone else to do the same.

I am extremely concerned about individual rights and freedoms... which are being eroded faster than water flows from a ducks back. I simply believe that if we don't take the time to speak out against the wrongs committed against others then soon we will have no choice but to walk in line all the way to slaughter.

[RawAlex]

Do I think she is being setup? Yup. Do you think that setups happen without there being enough truth to support them?

Two wrongs don't make a right (but two Wrights made an airplane). The actions of the law enforcement people doesn't make running a commercial adult business in a residential neighborhood any better. I think that some her story is missing (like I wonder how many donations get actually declared to the bankruptcy court, example)... I think that not everything in this situation is kosher, and I am sure the police / LE people are counting on it.

Alex

[Bill]

So the zoning part of this debate should presumably be dropped. It's not the issue.

Thinking about this reminded me about free porn pages advertising adult dating sites like AFF and so many others.

From what I've heard, most of these adult dating sites are basically just fronts for escorts and prostitutes. Most of the female "profiles" are fakes or escorts. I've read articles from the escort community describing how to use the adult dating site sto get paying customers.

But I see a lot of people selling the adult dating stuff.

Isn't that soliciting? Selling soliciting services, at least?

[RawAlex]

Bill, no, the zoning is still an issue - courts often issue contridictory rulings, or issue ruling that don't take into consideration other issues. What a bankrupcy court said about the validity of the business (a photo studio) can still stand in violation of zoning laws. People often forget that when you are dealing with the left hand, the right hand has no idea what you are up to.

Is running a dungeon for photoshoots legal? I think the answer is yes. Is running a photostudio in your house legal? If you have a permit, then you are good to go. Running an adult business in an residential area, well.. who knows?

Obviously the setup guy (the guy running up with cash in hand for the mistress) shows where they are going - prostituion and operating an adult business.

I also get a feeling that the "victim" here is splitting some legal hairs through all of this. Just a feeling, no proof... but I feel some shift in the story.

interesting and potentially relevant stuff:

http://www.pervscan.com/2003/08/30/is-sm-sex/

http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/law/law.html

http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/rumpoule.htm

Prostitution is usually defined as "sexual conduct for money." A number of professional dominants, male submissives that wanted to see professional dominants, and people wishing to start private dungeons and place spaces that require an admission fee have consulted me.

The laws in this area vary a great deal from state to state. For example, in most areas of California, professional dommes are not arrested for prostitution as long as there is no "sexual contact" with the client. However, in Arizona, prostitution is defined to include "Sadomasochistic abuse" which is further defined to include, "flagellation or torture by or upon a person who is nude or clad in undergarments or in revealing or bizarre costume or the condition of being fettered, bound or otherwise physically restrained on the part of one so clothed."

Penalties can vary as well. Usually prostitution is a misdemeanor. But, even still, depending on local laws, a conviction can result in a lengthy sentence.

Prostitution laws also apply to the clients as well. In most states, law enforcement not only set up "stings" on prostitutes by posing as clients, but also set up stings on the clients by posing as prostitutes.

Misdemeanor prostitution can suddenly become a pandering or "pimping" charge if others are employed in prostitution offenses. This is usually a felony in most states. Pandering charges have been applied in some cases where people have opened private "SM clubs" and charged for admittance. Probably there is no problem where people are on their own in finding partners. But where partners are provided by management, even if there is not an extra charge, charges have been brought.

So, be very careful any time money is being charged in connection with a sexually related activity. Especially when there is a profit that goes into someone's pocket, rather than covering expenses.

The best thing to do is contact an experienced criminal defense attorney in your area to learn not only the laws, but what police enforcement and prosecution policies are.

On a lighter note, in the Netherlands where prostitution is legal, the Fire Marshall announced a regulation that that customers could not be put in bondage that took longer than 30 seconds to release.

It goes on an on...

Bill, when I say soliciting, it is "soliciting for a sexual act". Newspapers will not knowingly list ads for illegal services, and often they will have rules as to what can be run and what cannot be run. It is a very fine line. Remember, escorts per se are not illegal (they sell time, not sex) but it is a very, very fine line between X and Y.

Alex

[Useless]

I guess my first question is this:
How much for a spanking?
How much more if I jerk off while being spanked?

I've been reading this thread with a certain amount of speculation and interest. I don't know why we'd care who designed her sites or care whether or not the designer gives two shits.

I don't understand why it's so wrong for a pornographer to have opinions about certain types of porn. Are we all supposed to line up behind webwoman and faithfully support her because she's a pornographer and by golly we porn people stick together? Fuck that. Those of us in the traffic business make judgements on porn everyday by listing or not listing sites or galleries that contain content that we may or may not feel comfortable with. Who amongst you is so vehemently opposed to infringing the first ammendment rights of your fellow webmasters that you list every fucking link submitted to you? Anyone?

[RawAlex]

UW, you nailed it.

Alex

[Tommy]

see this is where I think we are getting off the subject

From what webwoman said in her own words

the police never said anything about her websites, she doesn't know why shes been singled out but they did tell her this

Originally Posted by webwoman

they told me it was illegal to practice sadomasochism because it was a sex act the same as intercourse.
they told me spanking and any type of this play was prostitution.

I think they took her computers to prove she is charging for sex
appointments made in email and payments made, descriptions of what happens in the dungeon

instant message conversations
money records etc etc

if she was doing this in Nevada where prostitution is legal I would say she is in the right but that's not the case

also models or porn actors dont pay to be in porn videos

they get paid and the person they are having sex with is normally not the one laying out the money

I have to look at this and say what was her intention

do I beleive these people were paying 300 a hour for a sex act

or do i beleive these people where so depreate to be in a porn video they shelled out 300 a hour

Now I wanna ask the rest of you.
what do you think was really going on there ???

[Tommy]

Ohh btw
I doubt the cops are gonna charge you with anything

but they will be back
I think they just want you out of the neighborhood and they are gonna fuck with you untill you figure out it would be easyer to operate from somewhere else

thats why they never showed you a warrant
thats why they refused to tell you anything
thats why the guy walked up with money in hand
thats why they didnt give you any paper for the stuff they took

[furrygirl]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Alex, I think you want to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want a 'whip house' next door, but it's okay for you to run a porn biz from your house because your clients don't have to come to your house? You're still a deviate in the eyes of many and I guarantee you, in many parts of the country you'd be looked at with more disdain than Webwoman. Do you think people would like to have a pornographer living next door to their kids?

You seem to be completely against prostitution from what I can tell from your rant. There is absolutely no difference between a woman having sex with a guy and both of them being paid by a producer and a woman having sex with a man and being paid by the man. They are both selling their bodies, they're just being paid by different people yet according to the law, one is pandering and the other is artistic expression.

Wow, Hammer and I agree on something.

[furrygirl]

Originally Posted by webwoman

If we sub divide from each other we lose the fight completely because we now are not fighting the officials who are trying to end the adult industry. We are fighting against each other just like they want us to. When this happens it allows them to continue to take steps to enforce yet another way to discredit all of us.

...

Our familles would not want to live next door to a vanilla sex site either because its not what we believe.

Webwoman, I'm as much "on your side" as anyone here has been, but I didn't like this post one bit. You can't call for pervert solidarity and ask that we not infight in the face of government harassment, and then cast a stone at people who run "vanilla sex sites". It doesn't help anything to turn around the, "I don't want to live next to you, you're a weirdo!" argument on others.

[Cleo]

Seems this was about prostitution and not pedaling smut so really it is not about the kind of business that this board is about.

That being said I find it amazing and a violation of of my right to do with my body as I see fit that it is ok to fuck a guy after he buys me dinner but not ok to fuck him if he gives me money to go shopping. Personally I much prefer the shopping money over something that I'm just going to shit out the next day.

[furrygirl]

One more post on this for now...

I'm not accusing anyone of being "prudes", I'm saying that it's weird what people get up in arms about and accuse of being derogative to the legal adult industry.

I seem to recollect that many posters on this thread who are knocking Webwoman were avid backers of Sleep Assault. In my opinion, sites such as Sleep Assault (or Meat Holes or Little April) do way more to discredit our industry as a whole (by virtue of being heavily promoted) than does one dominatrix. I don't believe that "extreme" or "taboo" porn should be *illegal* so long as it involves consenting adults, but I do think that *as members of the adult industry,* we should critique ourselves and our colleague in the interest of making a stronger adult industry. (This sort of nuanced reply is one that never seems to be grasped by so many people when I repeat it in different discussions. It's not a matter of wanting everything I ethically question to be illegal, it's a matter of having discussion about it *from within* the industry to consider what is best for all of us as a whole.)

That being said again, I just don't see why people who have no issue with porn sites that arguably encourages rape or pedo-lust get all riled up over the very *notion* that someone might be a prostitute.

And then, people are expressing that even though "prostitution" makes our industry look bad, they are pissed because they're not getting a cut of "donations" as affiliates. Make up your minds! You can't accuse someone of having illegal business dealings that you find to be "wrong", and then wonder where your pimp/revshare payment is.

Plus: As far as I know, being a dominatrix is not actually illegal if you're not having *sex* for money. Even with all the insinuations being thrown around in this discussion, there is no actual crime being committed in what EmpressM is doing. Believe it or not, but it's perfectly legal to straight-up charge someone $200 for being tied up and yelled at. Spanking someone is not prostitution. Flogging someone is not prostitution. Forced feminization play is not prostitution (Now, if you're not reporting that income, that's when you might get bothered by the IRS.)

Also, if people are so freaked out at the thought of promoting something that maybe possibly could be construed as having something to do with prostitution, then I hope you don't promote Adult Friend Finder of any dating sites. Where do you think the technologically hip hookers of new find their johns? [Ah, Bill beat me to this, I've been writing this reply while reading the thread.]

[fetish1]

Originally Posted by webwoman

I'm amazed at the ignorance of people who have no understanding of how the bdsm community helps each other with donations so that we can keep our businesses and studios open. We are always willing to help others in the fetish lifestyle or not. I live the lifestyle and no one gets that..Why???
I see that you sponser all kinds of fetish and mistress sites and earn money off them ..they are exact to mine ..are you saying that they dont take donations .Yes all Mistresses have people who donate to keep her sites and dungeon open.

Having been in the lifestyle for more years than I care to admit (unless of course I admit to getting involved in it at the age of 2) apparently things in CT are handled differently than they are in NC, TN, VA, Washington DC, IA, and ND, as I have NEVER dealt with a "donation" situation for scenes. A monthly cover charge for munches, and a cover charge to get into clubs yes, but donations to help someone keep their dungeon up? NO. Does that mean it's not possible that some people help each other out in a bind, of course not, but to assume that everyone in the lifestyle is a "pro" that charges/accepts donations is a falacy.

Originally Posted by Tommy

see this is where I think we are getting off the subject
From what webwoman said in her own words:
Originally Posted by webwoman -
they told me it was illegal to practice sadomasochism because it was a sex act the same as intercourse.
they told me spanking and any type of this play was prostitution.

THANK You Tommy! I thought perhaps I was seeing things as no one else has pointed that statement out. If she runs this out of her home following all guidelines and under a business license then she should have known the laws and they quoted her what is illegal - which happens to be something she charges a "donation" for...seems pretty clear.

[GonZo]

Originally Posted by fetish1

Having been in the lifestyle for more years than I care to admit (unless of course I admit to getting involved in it at the age of 2) apparently things in CT are handled differently than they are in NC, TN, VA, Washington DC, IA, and ND, as I have NEVER dealt with a "donation" situation for scenes. A monthly cover charge for munches, and a cover charge to get into clubs yes, but donations to help someone keep their dungeon up? NO. Does that mean it's not possible that some people help each other out in a bind, of course not, but to assume that everyone in the lifestyle is a "pro" that charges/accepts donations is a falacy.




THANK You Tommy! I thought perhaps I was seeing things as no one else has pointed that statement out. If she runs this out of her home following all guidelines and under a business license then she should have known the laws and they quoted her what is illegal - which happens to be something she charges a "donation" for...seems pretty clear.

And there goes the lifestyle/donation arguement.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by furrygirl

Wow, Hammer and I agree on something.

It's bound to happen from time to time. You can't always be wrong.

[RawAlex]

"bound to happen"... how appropriate!

Alex

[doublep]

"To bring people into the neighborhood that might find children tasty? Think hard."

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up paedophilia - can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her?








Divide and conquer!

[GonZo]

[quote=doublep can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her?[/QUOTE]

Classless.

[doublep]

Originally Posted by GonZo

Classless.

I was being sarcastic Gonzo!

[Useless]

Originally Posted by doublep

can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her?

Not until I get my spanking!

[GonZo]

Originally Posted by doublep

I was being sarcastic Gonzo!

I only know what I see on here since I dont know you. Sorry for jumping the gun.

Thought provoking thread on many levels nonetheless...one of the better ones Ive seen in months..


Quite a refreshing change as opposed to reading good morning greetings or cut and past of news articles.

[Hammer]

I agree, Gonzo. The thing is that usually when a thread gets interesting and people start debating both sides of the issue someone starts shouting 'stop the pissing' and the thread gets closed. I don't care for the boards where anything goes, but as long as no personal attacks are made, I don't see anything wrong with heated discussions.

One thing I've noticed is that 5 or 6 people can sit around a table at Internext and have the same exact type of discussion that we're having here, but since you can hear nuances in the voices and detect smirks and smiles when things are said, that same exact conversation is nothing more than that, a conversation. Take that same conversation and put in in print on a board and suddenly people start reading between the lines and hearing things that weren't intended the way they are interpretting them.

For example, Gonzo and I are good friends, but if anyone didn't know that and I replied to him in a post with "Oh shut up you fat fucking nobody", those people would go ballistic and fire off PMs to the mods to get me banned.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I agree, Gonzo. The thing is that usually when a thread gets interesting and people start debating both sides of the issue someone starts shouting 'stop the pissing' and the thread gets closed...

We don't close threads because of piss & the only assclowns that get banned are spammers

[doublep]

Originally Posted by GonZo

I only know what I see on here since I dont know you. Sorry for jumping the gun.

Thought provoking thread on many levels nonetheless...one of the better ones Ive seen in months..


Quite a refreshing change as opposed to reading good morning greetings or cut and past of news articles.

NP gonzo ;-) This is an interesting thread... but in my humble opinion the last thing we need is knee jerk reactionary statements... we vote in politicians to do that shite!

People like webwomen have become easy targets for the authorities, not just in the States but in the UK too - in fact over there they are debating a ban on 'violent' pornography right now, and when they say violent, what they mean is S&M... anything of the beaten path [no pun intended] for that matter.. they may have relaxed the laws on 'vanilla' but the staffing costs of the vice squad have to be justified somehow - so lets go after someone who doesn't fit in, even if they are consenting adults.

We all know deep down where the authorities should be putting the effort in - don't we?

[RawAlex]

doublep, the question of "tasty children" really doesn't come from me or anyone here, but the logic that neighbors and therefore public officials will use. Enough people out there think that anyone who is into "recreational sex" has to also be a pervert, and some perverts are pedophiles. Why take the chance?

So, if she weighs the same as a duck....

It is one of the reasons many people in the industry don't tell their famlies what they do. Mention "I do internet porn", and they will immediately have you labelled as a spammer and CP distributor. There are built in assumptions at work.

Public officials respond to the concerns of the citizens (or their own concerns and biases). We get what we get.

Alex