What internet content label do you think should be the standard and promoted as such?

[cd34]

http://www.html-reference.com/META_name_rating.htm

I cannot find the actual w3c reference even though I have searched a number of their pages. I saw it this morning when I posted this, but, even looking through my history I have about 55 pages from them and I have glanced through each and don't see the source recommendation.

But, the above url is confirmed with a number of other sites.

[Jim]

See, here is my problem. When parents started complaining about these problems on TV, the gov stepped in and said by a certain year, all tvs would have a v-chip. I don't know why they are not doing that with doing that with PCs.
http://www.fcc.gov/vchip/

[Bill]

The thing is, Jim, all a vchip is, is a little dedicated computer that reads a kind of software tag attached to the television program.

Every computer today made is already a million times more powerful than a vchip.

You don't need to insert a vchip into a computer - just tell the computer with a snippet of instruction, ideally put into the browser software, to read the ratings tags we already put on our pages. (hell, this already exists, it's just that parents don't know how to set their computers to safe surfing. Solution? Every computer can be sold _already set_ to kidsafe surfing, and the adult has to turn on adult surfing.)

The reason the old style TVs needed a chip put in is that they had no brains, no processing power. We already have all the processing power we need to do a vchips job in every computer.

[odysseus]

My vote was also for the meta tag. I've been using the meta tag "mature" as well as the ICRA tag on my sites since I heard about them early last year just to cover bases. But, I think simplicity is the key.

Honestly, as a parent, I can say that most parents are retarded. I'm not kidding, they are really stupid and would barely put the effort forth to shout "STOP" if they saw their kids about to drink a jug of antifreeze. Unfortunately, if it's not simple, nobody will do it. If browsers are shipped by default to block out mature and restricted meta tags, then dad will be forced to figure out how to work the filters, because we all know that surfers let nothing come between them and their free porn. Once dad is empowered with this divine knowlege, if the kids see porn, I say tar and feather the lazy parent, then pour antifreeze down his throat.

I like what walrus said about finding a way to get SE benefit as well. That would be kick ass!

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Bill

The thing is, Jim, all a vchip is, is a little dedicated computer that reads a kind of software tag attached to the television program.

Every computer today made is already a million times more powerful than a vchip.

You don't need to insert a vchip into a computer - just tell the computer with a snippet of instruction, ideally put into the browser software, to read the ratings tags we already put on our pages. (hell, this already exists, it's just that parents don't know how to set their computers to safe surfing. Solution? Every computer can be sold _already set_ to kidsafe surfing, and the adult has to turn on adult surfing.)

The reason the old style TVs needed a chip put in is that they had no brains, no processing power. We already have all the processing power we need to do a vchips job in every computer.

And yet, there is a vchip in my brand new sony grand wega. Not just special programming in the TV itself but an actual chip.

[anasporn]

Originally Posted by Bill

You don't need to insert a vchip into a computer - just tell the computer with a snippet of instruction, ideally put into the browser software, to read the ratings tags we already put on our pages. (hell, this already exists, it's just that parents don't know how to set their computers to safe surfing. Solution? Every computer can be sold _already set_ to kidsafe surfing, and the adult has to turn on adult surfing.)

There would be a lot of unhappy parents LOL Reminds me of the time I set up my dad's AOL account and put parental controls on it as a joke...it took him a week to figure out what I had done and he was not nearly as amused as I was! But it's also the best way to teach parents how effective parental control settings can be!

[stuveltje]

since a couple of months i use ICRA label , before that i used sites with the metatag mature, i like the vchip you guys are talking about, we dont have that stuff as far as i know here in holland, i can say i am worried about the porn thing on the net for kids, well in a certain way, and i dont know if i explain it right, i have an eleven year old daughter who is very smart and always works on her laptop and find her info on the net for the topics of her scripts, now what i realy hate is the fact she looks say for snakes , find a page in google which says snakes (non adult, heay snake word can be use in adult), she clicks and gets porn, now i have asked her , how they deal with that at her school, the kids work in groups on their puter, say 12 kids 12 puters in one room and there is a teacher there to watch where they are surfing, but even the kids search for non adult links, most links will redirect to porn, i realy dont know if there is an solution, but i like the idea for the Vchip

[RawAlex]

Findpics and link2x now have simple meta tags on all pages.

Alex

[selena]

Originally Posted by cd34

however, the RFC says mature rather than adult


"14 Years", "General", "Mature", "Restricted", "Safe for Kids" are the tags defined by w3c. Restricted is considered X-Rated, Mature is considered R Rated.

~raises hand~

Okay, that confused me a little. I have been (along with ICRA tags) using

<META NAME="RATING" CONTENT="Mature">

Does the above quote mean I should be using

<META NAME="RATING" CONTENT="Restricted"> instead?

[tickler]

Hmmm, I always thought the "R" in R-Rated meant restricted.
And, the "X" in X-Rated meant XXX hardcore porn.

I like the simple tag. Although you might want to add some kind of age rating to it so other "non-adult" sites could use similar tags.
Instead of Adult, use Age-18 or Age-21, etc.

[cd34]

I have always been under the impression that mature was 'less' adult than restricted and several pages that talk about that meta tag tend to agree.

The w3c replaced that simple tag with PICS ratings because a policy could be generated with your own rules if someone wanted to get sophisticated enough to write a policy. ICRA made things a bit too granular, but, are the largest 'standards' based group that I have seen and most of the 'safe surfer' technology is based on ICRA's work.

I think with a PICS rating from ICRA and the rating metatag and some enforcement, it can be said that the adult industry IS concerned with making sure people do have a method to control access if they deem it so.

Personally, I don't feel adding a new system or meta tag will be adopted by the search engines, browsers, plugins, etc anywhere near as quickly as using a system that has been defined and in place since 98.

[RawAlex]

Jim, a V-chip in the TV world works because of the way that the encoding is made. The data for the V-chip encoding is done in a similar manner to close captions or XDS encoded data. The information is broadcast on a continuous basis, not just at a single time at the start of the show (the little logo you see at the start of the show is only there to show you, technically it does nothing.

http://www.linkelectronics.com/htm/techvchp.htm

Web pages are served in a different manner, one shot there you go, all the data is in one place. Making the browser (which is the software normally used for reading web pages) check for a simple meta tag is a piece of cake job, a very few lines of code and you are off to the races.

The government needs to pass simple rules: All web pages must be rated (General to Restricted / adult / XXX ) and all browsers must support a simple system to read these tags and block unwanted websites.

Done.

Sadly, the simple answers will never be simple.

Alex

[Wazza]

So there are two valid systems available (even if those using one of them appear to have generally got it wrong).

Can we have another poll asking whether the FSC should bother trying to reinvent the wheel?

As for locking my new puter down in kiddy mode and requiring me to make it suitable for my use... fuck that for a joke! I bought the fucking thing. Dumbing things down, to mollycoddle children and the dickheads who are apparently so fucking proud of the fact that their parenting skills leave a lot to be desired that they won't stop admitting it in public, is not the answer imo.

[Bill]

Yeah, but your an aussie Wazza. Youtr people have a dram or two of common sense left.

American parents have these teeny-tiny brains, and they can't do a thing without a giant federal beauracracy to help them. If they didn't have government help to wipe their butts they couldn't even take a shit on their own.

Actually, I think the solution isn't to make computer vendors sell every computer set to kid-safe, I only suggested that because I know it's exactly how our politicians think. If we say to the politicians "go ahead, sell everything kid safe and let the idiot adults figure out how to turn on the porn", they'll fucking love the power we are giving them. Then the lobbyists will bribe them to adopt some other more practical solution.

You see, in america nothing gets done without stroking politicians egos.

[SirMoby]

I believe simple is best but I also believe the far right won’t accept something too simple. The arguments are too easy to make that if ratings are just for pornographers then why not just force pornographers to use AVS, which we all know does not work.

The w3c standard separates R rated type stuff from X rated type stuff. The R rated stuff includes the news companies that will be spreading the propaganda. If the proposal is made in a way that they also need to label content then they can’t be as harsh on just one type of content. After all, shouldn’t violence be controlled using an AVS as well?

The V-Chip was only needed in TVs because they don’t have any intelligence. Computers have an entire operating system in place so they have the intelligence to do everything the V-Chip can do.

I know that a simple tag is the easiest to use but stop thinking like a webmaster for a few minutes and start thinking like the far right. If you haven’t spent most of your life around them, don’t know the political mindset and understand how voters are manipulated start watching Fox News around 9:00 PM.

Remember that many of them grew up thinking a one legged pregnant black woman carrying a baby didn’t have the right to sit down if a healthy white man was standing. Here’s what runs through the minds even if it’s not running through the mouth.

“Pornographers are sinners and they’re not like us. The Constitution and Bill Of Rights doesn’t include sinners. They’re lucky that we don’t hang them. We need to make it impossible for pornography to be seen. This rating system is only designed for pornography so there’s no need to make it easy.”

A tag that’s too simple and only includes pornography will quickly be turned into an AVS requirement and probably the only acceptable technology for this will be patented by a law firm in Florida that happens to be governed by the 2012/2016 Presidential candidate.

Only when a proposal is made to rate content other then pornography do we stand a chance of freely rating content.

[RawAlex]

SirMoby, the idea isn't for a tag that applies to porn only. Think bigger, but in a small way:

The tag is a requirement of ALL websites. ALL types. They have to rank them like TV - from G to X (or whatever it is). Make it a legal requirement for websites, and more importantly,make it a legal requirement of a browser to handle those tags (and to not display any page that isn't coded).

It wouldn't be an adult only solution at all... and it would put the net on a more even footing with cable TV / pay per view.

Alex

[Wazza]

Well Bill - we're not quite that bright

[Wazza]

And just to nail my colours to the mast - .kid and a small levy on all other domain buyers (to finance the administration and promotion thereof) - is my silver bullet solution to all of this rubbish.

[docholly]

Originally Posted by SirMoby

“Pornographers are sinners and they’re not like us. The Constitution and Bill Of Rights doesn’t include sinners. They’re lucky that we don’t hang them. We need to make it impossible for pornography to be seen. This rating system is only designed for pornography so there’s no need to make it easy.”

I was once told by the Governor of Alabama (Fob James, who the fuck has a name like "Fob"???) that the Constitution of the United States does NOT apply to the state of Alabama on the subject of prayer in school. I guess he was implying that it was written for NYC liberals. LMAO.

That's the mentality we need to think like.

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

SirMoby, the idea isn't for a tag that applies to porn only. Think bigger, but in a small way:

I understand this perfectly. Most adult webmasters will understand this and in the perfect world it could work. Are you thinking past the proposal stage and how the opponents are going to react?

The issue is not a matter of whether you and I understand it but a matter of how congress, the media and voters understand it. They will see the word "adult" and forget all about violence, hate and other types of adult material and only think about sex.

Unless the label specifically says "Adult Violence", "Adult Hate", "Adult Drugs", "Adult Etc...." the media will make out the label "Adult" to just be for sexual material. It makes for a much more interesting story and it also keeps them from having to label any content on their own websites.

I know it's for labeling many things but they will make it out to be for just sex and that means they don't have to label anything and the label for us won't go far enough.

Is anyone here thinking past the technology and into the negotiation stage of this proposal?

[RawAlex]

At the end of the day Moby, the idea is to keep children away from adult things. "adult hate" and "adult drugs" and "adult pony rides" are all adult. If you are over 18, you can drink, you can die in a war, you can look at hate material, and you can enjoy porn.

Adult is adult is adult, I think.

The idea is everyone has to label. Not just adult sites... ALL sites. If you have a website, you have to label, the same way all TV shows have to rate, even if they are childrens shows. It isn't to great a ghetto of adult sites and nothing else. If you don't do this sort of thing, people will just build adult sites without the rating and say "fuck it". Everyone has to forced in, and then it is all good.

Alex

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

At the end of the day Moby, the idea is to keep children away from adult things. "adult hate" and "adult drugs" and "adult pony rides" are all adult. If you are over 18, you can drink, you can die in a war, you can look at hate material, and you can enjoy porn.

Adult is adult is adult, I think.

The idea is everyone has to label. Not just adult sites... ALL sites. If you have a website, you have to label, the same way all TV shows have to rate, even if they are childrens shows. It isn't to great a ghetto of adult sites and nothing else. If you don't do this sort of thing, people will just build adult sites without the rating and say "fuck it". Everyone has to forced in, and then it is all good.

Alex

Why are you debating me on a point where we both agree?

Think past this arguement and onto the stage of pushing it through congress. Why shouldn't they simply say that "Adult" is only about sexual material? If they do then it makes for a great news story, keeps them from ever having to label their own sites and gets the support of voters.

Stop arguing with me on the issue of all sites. It's a waste of energy since we both agree.

Please start thinking about the politicians, the media and Hollywood. They will all push for the rating system to only be used for sexual material so none of them have to label anything.

[odysseus]

Originally Posted by wazza

As for locking my new puter down in kiddy mode and requiring me to make it suitable for my use... fuck that for a joke! I bought the fucking thing. Dumbing things down, to mollycoddle children and the dickheads who are apparently so fucking proud of the fact that their parenting skills leave a lot to be desired that they won't stop admitting it in public, is not the answer imo.

While I agree that dumbing down and mollycoddling isn't cool, the sad fact is that people are stupid, and to teach them how to do something for themselves isn't always as easy as you would expect. I could be wrong, I'm pretty jaded and cynical. The fact also remains that computers aren't all purchased by adults for themselves. Perhaps have an option for the parents to add a "kid safe default" when they are selecting all the gizmos to add to their computer they are buying at dell.com or something. That way if grandma technophobe wanted to buy little jimmy a computer for his birthday, it would be easy. It would already be kid safe. But, you are right. If you bought it you should have say.

Still, I'm not arguing with you, I don't like things being dumbed down. For instance, I don't think wearing seatbelts should be a law. And I also think that your insurance company shouldn't be responsible for injuries received from not wearing one. Same goes for motorcyle helmets, but that's just an example. I'm big on accountability for ones self, and for those you are responsible for. So, we are on the same page, to a degree.

But, as Sir Moby and Raw Alex are pointing out, the political nonsense that would surround establishing a standard is mind boggling. Considering the political climate in the US right now, nothing seems simple, straight forward, and sensible. It's very frustrating.

[RawAlex]

No, I think that the TV industry and movie industry have already blazed the path and set the standards. Hollywood and the other media also understand and have long since accepted (grudgingly, with issues) the current rating system. I would rather be part of that big whole, rather than being the oddballs on the corner.

Alex

[walrus]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

No, I think that the TV industry and movie industry have already blazed the path and set the standards.
Alex

Careful, remember the movie and the TV industry ARE NOT self rating. All movies and TV shows must be submitted to a "ratings board" where the rating is assigned to them. I'm sure no one wants to submit every page of HTML they create to a ratings board, and wait for that board to come back with the appropriate tag to be inserted into their code. Also news programming and sports on TV are not rated (because of the real time issue) which creates some more interesting scenerio's with the V-chip and rating system. Things like children can watch a boxing match where the violence is real but they can not watch a movie like "Raging Bull" where the violence is staged.

The even bigger issue that we havent even begun to address is compliance. There is no way to force compliance without an international agreement and you think we all have a hard time agreeing.

I personally can see the headlines now....US outlaws all porn production and sales....In an unrelated story, Canadian immigration levels at record high....6 months later. US send cruise missiles in to destroy Canadian data centers. Most porn found in US coming from Canadian sources.