If a sponsor pays for advertising, Does that make them a better sponsor?

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Greenie

You know what - if you just left it at your 1st question:
If a sponsor pays for advertising, Does that make them a better sponsor?
I'd agree with you. I think most people know this as well. If it was true, every beer drinker that watched the game yesterday would buy Bud for the rest of their lives. Do you think that's going to happen?

It's the nonsense that the board is in some way censoring small companies that has me so pissed off, because that's a very strong word to throw around & I really think is has no business in this discussion.

Sorry, maybe i should have used restrict, it has similar meaning but sounds much better.

There is no reason to be pissed off GG. This is pretty much the business model of most all webmaster forums. Not just here. So this is not just about you and this forum, but all like forums.

Basically it could be compared to a TGP or Link List for porn surfers but instead of serving up pron, GGJ readers get access to all these useful posts full of search able information at no cost with trade off of being exposed to advertisements which could be compared to the paid add spots on some TGP's.

The outcome of which is that only the advertisers which can afford to pay get most all of the exposure and sign ups.

This may be the perfect scenario for the forum and its advertisers but is it perfect for the readers?

Do you see how they possibly are being restricted into what they are seeing?

That is all I am talking about.

No different than if I ran a TGP and was asking what would be the affect on my porn surfers if for example I switched from open submissions to say just paid submissions.

No Worries!
BV

[bDok]

I don't think a sponsor paying for advertising is a better sponsor. At the end of the day the best sponsor is the one I'm making good consistent money with. I could careless if I found out about them from a link in someones sig or on a paid spot on the board.

That being said...

I would hope a small program that is being run right and is properly investing money back into the program would begin to become a medium program. From there go on to become a large one.

If not, sounds like the program might not be around in the long run and the work put out to promote it maybe isn't worth it.

At times a good grass roots way of getting things going goes a long way. Hearing it from other webmasters on other webmasters pages off their sites when you are submitting or traffic trading. etc.

[DangerDave]

GG quit being so polite , I think you have 'extended courtesy' to this thread for much longer than I would of...

Originally Posted by [BV]

I just wanted to know if you thought it was fair to the readers.

This is the/your key question!?

Which should only be answered with another question.

Why does it have to be "fair"?
The premise of the question assumes that "fair" is good, or that "fair" is what should be aimed for.

That is simply not the case, this is a business and "fairness" is a great way to make your business go bust!


Additionally, the premise of the question assumes that we "readers" are too stupid to go look for small programs on our own... and have to have them 'spoon-feed' to us in special 'sticky posts' - another false premise.

Most, if not all of us can use the many other resources of our business( that have been supplied for years for free) to track down any number of small programs.


Thirdly, my 'smaller program' gets valuable free advertising from this board and others, because of the contribution I make... no freebies for being small, just a little thank you and reward for adding to the community(another 'net fundamental)

Your 'argument' has been flawed from the beginning and holds no value..

DD

[Toby]

Dave, your posts always cut through the bullshit. A real breath of fresh air.

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by bDok

I don't think a sponsor paying for advertising is a better sponsor. At the end of the day the best sponsor is the one I'm making good consistent money with. I could careless if I found out about them from a link in someones sig or on a paid spot on the board.

That being said...

I would hope a small program that is being run right and is properly investing money back into the program would begin to become a medium program. From there go on to become a large one.

If not, sounds like the program might not be around in the long run and the work put out to promote it maybe isn't worth it.

At times a good grass roots way of getting things going goes a long way. Hearing it from other webmasters on other webmasters pages off their sites when you are submitting or traffic trading. etc.

Well that could be true for some, but there are many circumstances where this might not be true.

For example, in my case, I chose to stay in pretty much one little niche. For the longest time I didn't even have a so called "program" just 1 site. This may or may not have been a mistake on my part as far as becoming a large sized program with a dozen sites in many niches.

I like what I do. I've been doing it for almost 10 YEARS now as I 1st started in 1998. If I am still breathing I can pretty much guarantee you I will be doing this for another 10 years.

My niche turns me on and that helps me immensely in turning my customers on. I pretty much used to do EVERYTHING myself from the minor coding to designing to shooting the content. However lately it has become too much and I do have other photogs shoot for me as well as hire out a lot of more advanced coding jobs.

The problem for me is that I am a small sponsor with a 4 or 5 sites in 1 or 2 small niches. It will never pay off for me to spend what it takes to advertise here and other places. There just isn't enough bang. My only alternative is the grass roots helping out here and there method. I always have done that and have never been labeled a spammer i don't think.

I suspect that there are a ton of solo girl sites that are in the same boat as me also. Probably even more so.

Anyways it seems that I am starting to piss people off here. Sorry for that. We talk about business models in all areas of adult here, the good the bad, what the effects and outcomes are.

I guess talking about a Webmaster Forums business model is a big no no!

Another lesson learned.

Cheers,
BV

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by [BV]

...There is no reason to be pissed off GG. This is pretty much the business model of most all webmaster forums. Not just here. So this is not just about you and this forum, but all like forums.

Basically it could be compared to a TGP or Link List for porn surfers but instead of serving up pron, GGJ readers get access to all these useful posts full of search able information at no cost with trade off of being exposed to advertisements which could be compared to the paid add spots on some TGP's.

The outcome of which is that only the advertisers which can afford to pay get most all of the exposure and sign ups.

This may be the perfect scenario for the forum and its advertisers but is it perfect for the readers?

Do you see how they possibly are being restricted into what they are seeing?...

...[/quote]Can you please provide me with one example of anyplace in the real world of buying & selling ad space - not just message boards & not just adult - is different?

And, did you miss my post about the stats I publish? Did you see that sticky thread on top that shows the stats of 29 CCBill programs that are considered small?

I want to know what brought this about. What board did you want free advertising on that told you to get bent?

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by [BV]

...I guess talking about a Webmaster Forums business model is a big no no!...

It's not just the webmaster forum business model - it's THE BUSINESS MODEL OF EVERY COMPANY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT SELLS AD SPACE.

Why should our model be different?

(ps - if you brought this up to drum up business for your program, my hat is off to you )

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Greenie

It's not just the webmaster forum business model - it's THE BUSINESS MODEL OF EVERY COMPANY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT SELLS AD SPACE.

Why should our model be different?

(ps - if you brought this up to drum up business for your program, my hat is off to you )

I haven't asked you to change your business model have I?
We're just talking about the model and it's pluses and minuses.

You're stats pages are an excellent tool for webmasters. In fact I love looking at that kind of info, even more so if I was an affiliate. I have always said that in past posts here as well.

Sorry if I miss commenting on everything, there is a lot to comment on.

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Greenie

...

I want to know what brought this about. What board did you want free advertising on that told you to get bent?[/quote]

No other board told me to get bent. I don't ask for free shit. I pay my way on everything I do. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it.

If you don't believe me it will be pretty easy to verify as I only read and actively post only on 2 boards. This one and The other one.

If you really want to know what brought this about; I woke up yesterday and had a vision of your panties all in a wad and it really turned me on. So I said to myself what can I do to really piss off GreenGuy. The rest is history.

edit: and if it's any consequence, that other board, I can post an announcement thread pretty much any time I want in the main forum. I definitely have more posts there and answer many more questions than here, but it's a much faster moving board with many more posts, so that's understandable.

I would probably post more here but I am sort of anal about clicking through all the sub forums and I just have the main forum bookmarked on my desktop and usually enter right into the main forum and see what's new.

[GonZo]

I noticed you didnt answer my question.
So now Ill ask you a few more.

1. If you werent trolling for a free or discounted ad then why even bring it up?

If I posted enough to be considered a regular on this board I would be insulted that youd think that the users of this forum arent intelligent enough to figure out which sponsors are the best.

After 10 years Id figure you know that advertising on a business forum isnt an accurate measure of "best".... I humbly gauge the amount on the checks as my means.

2. What does the average webmaster earn a month with your program?

[[BV]]

Sorry Gonzo,

I answered your first question in my other replies even though I did not directly quote you. Your first question was:

Originally Posted by GonZo

What injustice is being done is what I really want to know.

Use the FOX news example. It's a pretty good analogy.

Originally Posted by GonZo

I noticed you didnt answer my question.
So now Ill ask you a few more.

1. If you werent trolling for a free or discounted ad then why even bring it up?

If I posted enough to be considered a regular on this board I would be insulted that youd think that the users of this forum arent intelligent enough to figure out which sponsors are the best.

After 10 years Id figure you know that advertising on a business forum isnt an accurate measure of "best".... I humbly gauge the amount on the checks as my means.

2. What does the average webmaster earn a month with your program?

I brought this up because I felt like it. Is it not a valid question? If it's not then delete the thread. Can we not discuss the affect of message boards on our industry?

I realise now it may be a bit controversial if you own and operate a forum, but do we not also talk about LinkLists, TGP's and Tube Sites and other businesses in Adult? and their affects on us?

Not everyone here has 10 years under their belt. There are webmasters of all kinds here. Do you think that everyone that watches FOX news can figure out that FOX has an agenda? A suspect alot don't.

As far as what my "average webmaster" makes. I guess that depends on what "average" is. Last month sent me 401 unique hits to BVCash. 182 of them went to BikiniVoyeur and he made 1 sale.

So can you see how my sites are very micro niche? Can you see how there are not huge traffic numbers in this niche?

I used to always be in Hoes.com top sponsor list (which was very cool for a little nobody like me) Props to Marc. I got many affiliates from that exposure for the year or so I was in the top 10. (as high as 3rd)http://www.hoes.com/sponsors/june2006.html

The sad part is that he no longer reports sites on that list unless he sends a minimum of 15,000 hits a month to them. So I am no longer listed
But he still sends me sales and I am grateful for that.

My strength is in numbers. Very few affiliates are going to make a living off this niche. It's just something to throw into their mix.

So that is where your theory is flawed:

Originally Posted by GonZo

After 10 years Id figure you know that advertising on a business forum isnt an accurate measure of "best".... I humbly gauge the amount on the checks as my means.

Your BVCash check will always be one of your smallest checks. You see what I mean?

Nice try though.

I hope I answered your questions in an adequate fashion.

Cheers,
BV

PS: If anyone else reading has any other questions in this thread that they feel were unanswered please point them out.

If there are no more questions then go ahead and DELETE THIS THREAD IF YOU SEE FIT GreenGuy!!!

I do not want to be accused of being a troll or a freeloader anymore.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by [BV]

...If there are no more questions then go ahead and DELETE THIS THREAD IF YOU SEE FIT GreenGuy!!!...

We don't delete threads...THAT would be censorship.

And I never said anything about you saying we should change our business model. I asked why you think that the business model of adult webmaster boards should be different than any other business model that sells ad space?

[GonZo]

I asked you since you were making the stink not Fox news.

If you werent trolling for some cheap ads maybe you have a litle resource envy then?

I think its a pretty lame question to ask on a free forum from 2 gents that have been around a long time and have helped out a number of us over the years [I registered my first domain in '93] and asked for nothing in return.

Im sorry you think my logic is flawed. Id be willing to bet that many of us feel that the best sponsors are the ones that send the largest checks. I can read Green Guys stats for myself. Hes posted them for years. I asked you what does your average webmaster make... I guess you are unwilling to answer that. So sad.

I wasnt trying for anything though. See Im not much for porn conspiracies or the man keeping fat fucking nobodies down.

Maybe Ive gotten sensative but I thought it was pretty rude to come into this free forum and ask questions that looked like they were made to put Mark and Jim in a bad light. I consider them to be some of the few HONEST people in this business with some integrity left.

If you dont want to look like a troll or a freeloader then maybe you shouldnt act like one.

Im sorry this thread isnt getting you the kind of response that maybe you hoped for but Im sure everyone appreciates the schooling on how a perfect webmaster forum shoud be ran.

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Greenie

We don't delete threads...THAT would be censorship.

And I never said anything about you saying we should change our business model. I asked why you think that the business model of adult webmaster boards should be different than any other business model that sells ad space?

Not all business models that sell add space are the same. Take Google for example. Their top add spots display right there next to whomever is able to rank high. No restrictions.

I'm sure there is room for improvement on anything. Nothing stays the same. We all evolve, up or down.

Here is just one scenario. (not saying it's the best option but it's another option)

Let's pretend for a moment that there were no paid adds at all here. The only adds here were your sponsors you use and they were given the same privileges as your current paid add sponsors. The only way you were paid was through your webmaster referrals.

What do you think your readers would think if they came here knowing that every add here was specifically endorsed by you rather than just selling adds to anyone that can afford to pay the toll?

That's just one scenario.

There could be many scenarios that might or might not be better, just depends better for whom.

It was brought to my attention just last night that PK started a new board. One of the neatest features was that thread starters had an option of displaying a top banner add at the top of each thread they started.

I thought that this was a cool feature and that might stimulate more threads. Of course there still has to be rules. But it has possibilities.

|goodidea or |badidea|

[Jim]

Thanks Gonzo...
If every source of information in the world did not have the same business model, I might have gotten a little offended.

Part of the problem seems to be a poor choice of words. Starting with the work "censor". As I said, it doesn't apply. And then Greenie's analogy using "FOX" because of the Superbowl. His beer comparison was good. I didn't see our local brewery in any of the Superbowl commercials but I don't believe they feel slighted or "censored". But instead of using "FOX", he could have used NBC, CBS, BBC, CW or any television network.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by [BV]

What do you think your readers would think if they came here knowing that every add here was specifically endorsed by you rather than just selling adds to anyone that can afford to pay the toll?

That part is a little offensive. We turn down sponsors weekly because of bad dealings we have heard of. We have also gotten rid of sponsors for treating webmasters poorly. And getting rid of sponsors costs a huge amount of money if you add up the refund and the amount of potential future earnings.

Don't think that we would ever allow a program to be a sponsor just because they offer money. Scumbags need not apply. You must be thinking of someplace else.

[Toby]

Confucius say, "When in over your head, quit digging."

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by GonZo

I asked you since you were making the stink not Fox news.

If you werent trolling for some cheap ads maybe you have a litle resource envy then?

I think its a pretty lame question to ask on a free forum from 2 gents that have been around a long time and have helped out a number of us over the years [I registered my first domain in '93] and asked for nothing in return.

Im sorry you think my logic is flawed. Id be willing to bet that many of us feel that the best sponsors are the ones that send the largest checks. I can read Green Guys stats for myself. Hes posted them for years. I asked you what does your average webmaster make... I guess you are unwilling to answer that. So sad.

I wasnt trying for anything though. See Im not much for porn conspiracies or the man keeping fat fucking nobodies down.

Maybe Ive gotten sensative but I thought it was pretty rude to come into this free forum and ask questions that looked like they were made to put Mark and Jim in a bad light. I consider them to be some of the few HONEST people in this business with some integrity left.

If you dont want to look like a troll or a freeloader then maybe you shouldnt act like one.

Im sorry this thread isnt getting you the kind of response that maybe you hoped for but Im sure everyone appreciates the schooling on how a perfect webmaster forum shoud be ran.

I answered your question concerning what my average webmaster makes. It's not much. I'm not sure how to gauge what an average webmaster makes. That's why I asked you what "average" is. I figured simply telling you what GG makes would give you that answer. Because he is definitely above average IMO, but because he sends traffic to many many sponsors his average checks from each are not going to be big.

On BVCash my best affiliate made 1750.30 last month and my worst made 1.48. With a total of 2509 affiliates. You do the math how you see fit.

You theory is flawed. You biggest check will be the sponsor that you send the most traffic too. If you send 10,000 clicks to sponsor A and and your check is $100.00, and you send 1000 clicks to sponsor B and your check is $10.00, by your theory sponsor A is better. That's retarded thinking.

I know GG & Jim are good people. That's not in dispute. They help people yes. This forum helps people. Not single handily though. Many people on this forum help people. Even me.

You have completely missed the whole concept here. Sorry.


Cheers,
BV

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Jim

That part is a little offensive. We turn down sponsors weekly because of bad dealings we have heard of. We have also gotten rid of sponsors for treating webmasters poorly. And getting rid of sponsors costs a huge amount of money if you add up the refund and the amount of potential future earnings.

Don't think that we would ever allow a program to be a sponsor just because they offer money. Scumbags need not apply. You must be thinking of someplace else.

That was not my intention, sorry, I know you have canned some add sponsors. I remember.

But you do see my point right?

Semantics aside.

Do you promote and make sales with every sponsor that buys adds here?

That's the point I was trying to make.

[GonZo]

Originally Posted by [BV]

You theory is flawed. You biggest check will be the sponsor that you send the most traffic too. If you send 10,000 clicks to sponsor A and and your check is $100.00, and you send 1000 clicks to sponsor B and your check is $10.00, by your theory sponsor A is better. That's retarded thinking.

Im not the one trolling for a cheap or free ad so I can see why youve had to start calling names now.

Im glad you keep responding though - you keep making your own case!

Youd think after 10 years you would get it.

[GonZo]

Originally Posted by Jim

Thanks Gonzo...
If every source of information in the world did not have the same business model, I might have gotten a little offended.

Part of the problem seems to be a poor choice of words. Starting with the work "censor". As I said, it doesn't apply. And then Greenie's analogy using "FOX" because of the Superbowl. His beer comparison was good. I didn't see our local brewery in any of the Superbowl commercials but I don't believe they feel slighted or "censored". But instead of using "FOX", he could have used NBC, CBS, BBC, CW or any television network.

Ive always enjoyed reading these grand conspracy therories that people think are contrived by board owners.

Whens the next double secret meeting so we can all decide which programs we want to push and which ones to censor for 2008?

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Toby

Confucius say, "When in over your head, quit digging."

If you're referring to me, I am just answering questions that are asked of me at this point.

[Toby]

I hope you have a long ladder down there, that hole must be getting pretty deep.

Originally Posted by [BV]

If you're referring to me, I am just answering questions that are asked of me at this point.

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by GonZo

Im not the one trolling for a cheap or free ad so I can see why youve had to start calling names now.

Im glad you keep responding though - you keep making your own case!

Youd think after 10 years you would get it.

Whatever you say GonZo. You know you made a statement that is inaccurate. Your biggest sponsor check does not automatically equal your best sponsor.

You want to start a thread about just that topic? Prove me wrong?

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Toby

I hope you have a long ladder down there, that hole must be getting pretty deep.

Put your pom poms down and contribute something already.