This is a legal problem that just hasnt come to a head before - yes there are a lot of major tgps out there doing exactly the same thing - and yes it is against the TOS of the programs - no one has made anything of it yet but thats not to say that anyone that owns the content has no footing - just because everyone does it doesnt make it right

I would say that most sponsors are pretty much either unaware of the legalities of the way their content is being used - or are just looking the other way in their contracts with the content suppliers - since they are also in breach of those contracts by someone sending traffic anywhere other than the sponsor that either leases or bought rights to that content.

Where is it written clearly that states that only non-skimming tgps can use their content?

You guys can argue all you want to.. but the fact will remain that there are many better sponsors that actually know it's for their profit and allow it..

i'm not for kloot or against kloot.. i'm just saying what i know.. the rest depends on the sponsor and the tgp owner.. if the tgp owners want to go ahead and get shitted on by a fuckin sponsor who didn't know enough to post something like that in his faqs page in the first place.. that sponsor is out of touch with his competition programs

I think this issue with skimming needs its own thread http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...threadid=10050

Crak, sponsor content can only be used to promote the sponsors site.

What part of that is so fucking hard to understand?

No different from putting up a Maxcash banner and having every 5th click download spyware. What's the difference?

NONE.

Alex

Yes i do know the sponsor content can only be used to promote the sponsor's site.. but all the sponsors i have come across so far have allowed tgps to use that content on their skim tgp..

I do admit that you are right, and there's nothing too hard with understanding that.. but how many thumb tgps do you know that dont skim atleast some percent? You think it will be such a good thing for the sponsor if they didnt allow all those thumb tgps to skim? Do you know how many sites will not promote that sponsor due to that?

It all comes down to the sponsor.. because thumb tgps will always be skimming from now on..

If the sponsor doesn't want their content to be used on skimming thumb tgps.. they should make that CLEAR.. because just by saying it is illegal to promote any other site using their content, it is not clear wether it includes the SKIM sites..

i guarantee you that if it was made clear, the sponsor would not be able to exist more than 2-3 months because all of their revenue would be gone..

That's all i had to add to this thread.. the rest is on the sponsor and the tgp webmasters

Yes...no wait, no. Then again, yes. No...I mean no. What was the question again? :)

I do believe it all boils down to which is better to use, live feeds or recorded feeds. Or maybe...that has nothing to do with this thread.

Truthfully...and regarding this thread, I promise. And Greenie will remember this. Back when Ultracash had all the cool branded content that we gave away. By the way...off on a tangent again, one of our newest sponsors, Matts Models was the person that took all of those cool pictures. Anyway, Greenie would let me know every time he spotted someone using our content without promoting our sites. I ended up telling him to just let it go because, the pictures were branded. And, we received about 100 free signups/day just from people stealing our content. So, to me, it was like someone stealing a banner and putting it up. Since then, I have told every program owner I worked with, to take off the restrictions on content use. Using someones content in a way the owner doesn't like is stealing. But, taking off restrictions on free content as long as it is branded is a good business decision.

My head hurts now, I am going to lay down.

I honestly dont think you folks are stupid enough to not understand this.

When you got the free content it had a terms and conditions? That terms and conditions said, hey, only use this to promote my sites.

If you do anything else you've broken the terms and condition of that agreement.

That's legally and morally wrong. You could use any other thumb on that TGP to promote your little fucking CJ scheme but you're not supposed to use their content to do it with.

Take a look at Nastydollars, for example, and their rules regarding their content.

IF this was nastydollars (or if you're doing the same with nastydollars, and they find out) you're up shit creek without a paddle.


Why is it so fucking hard to follow the rules of people who provide you with free content? I dont fucking get it.

Just follow the rules, christ. This isnt fucking highschool. You're not being cool by being rebelious. You broke an agreement, you got caught at it, fucking fix the problem and move on.

CraK - If you ask if you can borrow my car to go to the store & I say yes, I think it's pretty much implied that I don't want you to rob the store & use my car as the get-away vehicle.

Jim - your back in the day theory falls short because:
1 - the people using your content were not shrinking it down so that you could not see the branding
2 - were not using your content to falsely promote a site the surfer thought was yours

I'm sure we will fight more on the radio tonight :)

I think skimming TGP's with thumb previews are skating on very thin ice.

Why should any sponsor have their material linked to spyware or a link trade?

If you have a TGP with sexually explicit thumb previews then you really need to read 2257 sometime soon.

A year or two down the line, you may even need to keep records for every hardcore banner!

Skimming using preview thumbs is like me sending some of the traffic that clicks on an ARS banner to MaxCash, just is wrong to do.

Greenguy, I completely agree with you in theory and this issue has come up once before a few months ago - almost identical situation where a relatively small sponsor with little understanding of TGPs was upset that an affiliate skimmed their content. In practice, however, I believe a standard has been set and all sponsors looking to gain TGP traffic should be aware of this standard.

Are you really prepared to state that the theory should override precedent when determining whether some site is illegal or not? I know you would never do business with an illegal site. Are you prepared to stop your trades with clearly illegal sites such as Pichunter, Teeniesxxx, and Teeniefiles and brand half the members of this board as cheaters? I think you're being too aggressive in your defense of Torn and your attack on kloot. Are you really telling me that everytime you visited a site like Madthumbs you were thinking, I can't believe the illegal crap this piece of shit CJ is trying to pull?

I would disagree with that in that linking an ARS banner to Maxcash is cheating ARS, however skimming a thumbnail has an ulterior motive of making the site bigger and thus getting more click throughs to the sponsor.

The one big thing that this thread has shown is the difference in methods & attitudes between TGP webmasters & linklist webmasters.

I cant find any T & C's which would be very useful. You can say that a guy shouldnt have to say you cant use them for such a reason, however as Deleuze has succintly put, there are precedents in that 99% of sponsors do accept this use of their content.

Who set the standard? Who is the chief lemming?

Maybe you think there's safety in numbers? Can someone show me a link to a copy of this standard?

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2257.html

Probably the pioneering thumbsites, and the pioneering sponsors who realised the amount of traffic they can capture by doing this.

What might be good is if a few sponsors could come into the thread and give their opinions/position on this? Probably more constructive than a big argument.

http://www.madthumbs.com
http://www.teeniefiles.com
http://www.hqgal.com
http://www.jamies-galleries.com
http://www.teeniesxxx.com
etc.

And those obliging:

http://www.nastydollars.com
http://www.topbucks.com
http://www.adult.com
http://www.silvercash.com
http://www.arsri.com
etc.

This isn't about stealing cars - it's about stealing french fries. Try going to a judge claiming that your friend dipped into your plate of fries and you want to be compensated. The judge would laugh you out of the courtroom because this is normal practice. But before she does, she would probably tell you that you should make a point of declaring your gluttony when eating around friends.

This got a little off topic from Torn as he was pissed not only by the redirecting but the attempted spyware install.

Anyway...every thumb TGP that has ever used a hosted gallery breaks the rules...technically. These companies do not complain because this is the way it is.

That's what it boils down to. In today's world, thumb TGPs are a huge huge huge business and hosted galleries are apart of their business and skimming is what 90% of these sites do to grow and trade traffic. As already mentioned look at the top thumb sites as they all skim and all use hosted galleries.

Ramster, that argument is even weaker. Even if there was an attempted spyware install, the most Torn could do is say I don't want your traffic. He has absolutely no right to contact the host and get kloot shut down for copyright infringement because of this without first asking him to remove the thumbs and giving him ample time to do so.

This isn't some sort of fucking union where you can walk around & scream "PAST PRACTICE" & us that break the law! kloot did not have permission to use the content the way he did - END OF FUCKING STORY!

Believe me, I look at all those trades almost every day & they all know that the term "greenguy" or "link-o-rama" has to be in the TEXT link to me (thumb links are not accepted), other wise I pull the trade. If you see one linking to me in an improper fashion, please let me know so I can pull their link.

*******

Here's a couple of other things to think about:
1 - Spamming is not legal & is very much frowned upon by legit webmasters, yet your inbox as well as mine is probably filled with it.
2 - Bestiality is legal in Texas, but I don't think you'll find anyone coming to it's defense if we found someone promoting it.
3 - The age of consent around the world varies, but no one ever sticks up for the CP producer when it's legal in his country.
4 - Napster lost & everyone was using that service :)

JUST BECASE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL!

It's quite strange that they just shut kloot down without a warning. Maybe there is more to this than has been stated in this thread?

He gave kloot 24 hours & notified the host as the same time, so your theory falls short.

I love watching CJ-ers defend themselves.. :(


I am with Torn 100%, his content, his choice. His content used to promote some other program is a direct contravention of his program rules.


Torn IS a sponsor and he says NO

I am a sponsor and I say NO


Theres two

DD

So do you think the US Government will start getting McDonalds to print on every bag of fries the originial farm address, proof of age and contact information for every potato that made up that bag of fries?

So kloot is now also a liar? I call bullshit.

"I email Torn

Torn replies basically calling me a cheater. ALL I DID WAS LIST A DOZEN OF HER HOSTED GALLERIES ON A SITE WITH AN ENTER CONSOLE.

I immediately remove the hosted gallery links from my sites as requested within minutes and email her to tell her her links are removed

But too late."

What part of Torn emailing kloot & the host AT THE SAME TIME didn't you understand?

Torn stated earlier that he was surprised the host pulled his domain so quickly, seeing as he did give kloot 24 hours.

IMHO the hosting company did the right thing - no hosting company wants to have thieves on their servers & they acted quickly.

Quickly as in illegally? So now it's OK for a host to not investigate the matter or contact the client? Face it, this has nothing to do with a strict interpretation of the law. When Ramster went after Candid everyone was up in arms because Candid wanted to follow the law to the tee and not bypass certain procedures to close the account. This has everything to do with you seeing an opportunity to rip on thumb TGPs not realizing that half the people in your backyard have themselves ventured down this road. I despise thumb TGPs myself but I'm not going to let that prevent me from seeing the complete ignorance and resultant overreaction demonstrated by a sponsor that caters to a certain clientele without understanding one of the most basic practices of this clientele.

Lemmings' most basic practice is to jump off cliffs.

Do these TGPs have a FAQs section explaining that 1 in 5 clicks may install spyware?

Damn, had I known this would have turned into WWIII I would have ran my errands tomorrow lol.

Ok, I’m reading over what everyone has had to say and I will try and address everything that has stuck out to me.

CraK I have every right in the world to notify his host or anyone else’s host that my content (which is 100% mine without question) is being used in a manner I say is illegal. Because if it became a issue of Lawyers being involved, I would bet you anything, that the first thing my lawyer would ask me is “Did I notify the host” and if I said “no” he would say do it and look in 24 hours, when I say “yes, and it’s still there” he would draw up the lawsuit and would name that host as well.

So nowadays, when I send a C&D I automatically send two at the same time, 1 to the person and 1 to the host.

And I do not know why his host shut him done, as I asked before but I do not see answered, did they just get ONE EMAIL from me, or is this the straw that broke the camels back? I would like to think I am so well known that one letter from me can take whole sites down, but somehow, looking past my ego, I don’t think that is possible or likely. I think there is much more to the story.

And from all the responses I have read Ramster nailed it 100%. I saw a URL I never seen in my stats, so I go look at it, get 3 Norton warnings and right off the bat I am pissed. I see my content; I click on 2 links with only1 going to my site, which is enough for me. I do not have to, or even need to give this person or anyone a warning. If I didn’t get the Norton pop ups would I have terminated his account? Odds are no I would not have, I would have told him no blind links, but I got virus crap so the deal was sealed.

You guys do not seem to realize, this isn’t some girl I paid to pose for me, so I couldn’t give a rats ass who thinks she is trying to scam them, this is my wife. I took the pictures, and together she and I spent almost 5 years of our life building KatVixen.com, it is **OUR** life, and **OUR** reputations on the line, when a surfer writes me telling me to fuck off because he got some virus from looking at pictures from my site, who is looking bad here? Someone taking short cuts that have nothing but a little time invested in this, or is it Toni and I when our WHOLE LIFE is involved in our site 24/7?

I also think it’s funny that a few of you say it’s my fault because I didn’t have “DO NOT DO THIS” posted. Do I also need to post “Do Not Shoot me with a gun” on every page? That is kind of like who was the dumbass that was the reason they have to put “DO NOT EAT” warning labels on rat poison.

Common Sense.

just to make it clear.... i AIN'T deleted this domain. i forwarded Torn's complaint to freehost owner. freehost owner suspended kloot's domain....
so please, don't post on board that AdvancedHosters deleted your domain... ok?

Here are the 3 emails I sent.

*********First Email***********
to cjerrett@tiscali.co.uk

Chris Jerrett
12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
Domain Name: BUMPERBOOBS.COM

You are misusing my hosted content, this is your only warning, you can NOT use any of my content for your redirects, Trojans or whatever else crap you are trying to install on peoples computers.

I will give you 24 hours to remove all my content from all of your sites before I notify my lawyers.

I will be sending this to your host as well as canceling your affiliate status with http://www.katcash.com. After 24 hours anything I see on ANY of your sites belonging to me will be considered stolen and legal action will be taken.

Torn
http://www.katcash.com

********Second Email**************

To info@AdvancedHosters.com


This person is misusing my hosted content for redirecting to sites not my own and installing unwanted Trojans and whatever else they are trying to install on peoples pcs.

Chris Jerrett
12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
Domain Name: BUMPERBOOBS.COM

I gave them 24 hours to remove all my content or I will consider it stolen, as the host you may want to make sure it is off your servers in 24 hours other wise I will send all information to my lawyers for proper legal action.


Thank you

Torn Rose
http://www.katcash.com

******Third Email*********

sent to kloot@btopenworld.com

This is the email I sent today to cjerrett@tiscali.co.uk

Chris Jerrett

12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
Domain Name: BUMPERBOOBS.COM

You are misusing my hosted content, this is your only warning, you can NOT use any of my content for your redirects, Trojans or whatever else crap you are trying to install on peoples computers.

I will give you 24 hours to remove all my content from all of your sites before I notify my lawyers.

I will be sending this to your host as well as canceling your affiliate status with http://www.katcash.com. After 24 hours anything I see on ANY of your sites belonging to me will be considered stolen and legal action will be taken.

Torn
http://www.katcash.com

Hey Ramster :)

I'm fine. Working with Rob now, as you might know, from Brokertraffic.com for 50 new TGP designs.

Hope you're doing fine too.

Looking at the last 2 posts, Torn did give 24 hours. AH forwarded their mail to the freehost. The freehost didnt bother to give Kloot the chance to comply with Torns request.

Shit bad luck that you chose that freehost provider. |sad|

deleuze - What's to investigate? The guy had Torn & Kat's content on his site illegally! & don't mix threads & try to equate this to Ramster's problem - his main bitch was that Candid didn't even reply to him in a satisfactory manner until he took it to the boards - plus that thread had to do with hotlinking, which is a different kind of theft, but one that is also easily noticed & fixed with the flick of a switch.

And this only has to do with TGP's in that kloot had the image on a TGP - if it happened on a link list, it would have still been theft. The "excuse" was that other TGP's do the same thing - and once again, just because everyone else does it does not make it legal!

The only ignorance going on around here is by those that think it is ok to steal content & use it for whatever they want to use it for.

***

Free Host? LOL This is getting better & better by the minute :D

|pokefun| Free host time for some |popcorn| this is getting good |jester|

That's fine if you want to take that approach so long as you understand that every thumb TGP (I've yet to come accross a no-skim one of any significance) is using content illegally including those you trade traffic with. Even if they don't link to you from the stolen images, why would you even want to be associated with such thiefs? And why is kloot being used as the scapegoat when already there have been a few regulars on this board that have posted in this thread admitting their crimes? Surely Greenguy you didn't realize just today what a thumb TGP is and the practices they use - why have you waited till now to voice your opinions when all you have to do is browse around this board and see thieves soliticing business from and promoting their business to fellow thieves. Using your earlier examples, would you allow the promotion and discussion of spam, bestiality, CP, and warez to take place on this board?

Many people, myself included, had no idea of the legality of this problem. I don't do any circle jerk or skim stuff, so why the fuck would I care.

And, as Jim has stated, some people don't care about their content being used in this way & I say good for them - it's their content, they can make up their own rules.

But we're not talking about anything other than kloot using Torn's content illegally - that is the main topic of this discussion.

Oh - BTW - I will be going over my trades tomorrow morning to see who's doing what & will be adjusting my trades at that time - thank you so much for your concern for my site & trades :)

...and listen to the radio show tonight (one hour from now) as Jim & I will be discussing this as well as out next big contest :D

This is too funny... it's like being back in 1994 |waves|

I will gladly hear from programs who doesn't want me to use their hosted galleries (with their thumbnail on my sites) to promote their program. I will gladly remove them in a hurry if they contact me and complain about the traffic I send from all my sites.

I highly doubt any of them will thou because they'll lose quite a lot of traffic then.

TopBucks, SilverCash, NastyDollars, TripleXcash, RealityCash are just a few of those I use. Contact me if you want to be removed from any of my Thumb TGPs and of course other Thumb TGPs in this business.

Your right Mike, this is too funny....

Too funny you are only seeing HALF the story....

Explain the trojans/virus/whatever Norton said that was trying to install on my PC.

Do you do that as well?

The shit that setoff my Norton ***IS*** what started this, everything else is just the topping.

Funny how this point has yet to be addressed.....

There's only one reason to use a fucking free host for a fucking thumb TGP, and that's because you are a fucking crook who fully and consciously intends to fuck people over, right from the get go.

Bragging about your fucking thumbtgp income and the goddamn thing is on a fucking freehost autodownloading trojans? Who the fuck is the idiot and the crook in this case?

The copyright issues with thumb tgps have been discussed from one end to the other on dozens of boards. It's always been a risk, and thumbtgps have always been vulnerable to copyright holders. You should have known this before you started with your fucking autoinstalls.

A fucking freehost... So, do your traders know you been downloading trojans on their traffic?

It's shit like this that ruined the TGP biz. Used to be a nice business.

Mike, you might be surprised who does respond to this topic/thread... and you may see some changes..

I could go build a thumb TGP today and use ND content to make nice big thumbs and send all 99% traffic to ARSRI.. would ND worry... maybe they will now..


deleuze? Since when did GG decide on the laws of copyright and fair use.. You seem to be blaming him for everything.

There are plenty of us that dont use circle-jerk crap, and run thumb TGPs. It's perfectly doable and perfectly legal..

Kloot is no scapegoat... he was just the first to publically have the law enforced against him. Torn is still 100% correct

DD

Funny how you consider this an issue. Can you please direct me to the spot in your terms where it says one is not allowed to place your content on a page that may set off someone's Norton antivirus? If it's not there, then this happenstance has absolutely nothing to do with content theft. Your lack of sophistication leads me to believe you've been away from the internet for the last 5 years. I'm surprised you even know what a hosted gallery is because you obviously don't know who uses them and why they use them. Nor do you know who else makes them and why they make them. Marketing them in your sig with your terms (which by the way, I still can't for the life of me find on your site) is like advertising mailer creatives and then shutting down an affiliate for bulk mailing because the creatives were only meant for e-mailing friends and family. Sure it's your content and your site and you are most likely in the right, and that's cool so as long as you understand that you are alone in this position and will be fighting this battle alone as there has been an implicit agreement between thumb sites and sponsors that predates your offering of hosted galleries and will continue to exist long after you realize very few sites are capable of sending you significant traffic with the rules you adhere to.