LOL... yeah all alone... all by myself.....

|jester|

deleuze! or is that "deluded"?!

Circle Jerk TGP'ers are only ONE group that use them. There are plenty of others that use them perfectly legally and appropriately.

He is not alone..! in any way.. Anyone uses my content on a circle jerk thumb TGP they will be hearing from me. So that's two.. and I have no doubt more will come.

:) ?? Where would I find a copy of this agreement?????

DD

Hey URB, instead of the 1-2 pages I asked for the new KatCash design you are working on, I may need 5 to 10 extra pages for all the rules... let me know how much this will cost.









(Just Kidding of course, I will add those myself!)



|haha

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=implicit

:)

The funny thing is when this issue arose a few months ago, I was about the only one defending the sponsor because as you said Torn is still in the right legally. However, with the other incident, the sponsor sent out an e-mail to affiliates stating that they had just realized what was happening and did not want their hosted galleries used in such a way. I have absolutely no problem with sponsors choosing to allocate their content in such a way and in fact, it does make a certain amount of sense. I do have a problem however with a sponsor displaying complete ignorance towards the business they choose to enter and then use this ignorance to attack and ruin someone in an attempt to make themselves look more righteous and uphold a certain mode of operation that is no longer the norm. It's reactionary behaviour at it's finest and I would have just loved to see how things would have played out if Torn came to this board bitching because a site like Madthumbs was using his thumbs illegally to send him 20 signups/day.

I have a purely hypothetical question.

If I were promoting Katcash on a TGP gallery using your content would I be able to submit my gallery to a thumb TGP?

Bearing in mind they will use a thumbnail as the enticement to visit the gallery, and in all likelihood be operating a skim?

Where would I stand as a submitter, ie would you term my account and report me to my host? And what action would be taken against the thumb TGP in question?

Would I be restricted to sifting through the 1000's TGP's out there in order to find those that dont skim.

Although hypothetical these are valid concerns for a potential affiliate.

Listen Torn, when you trade with sites, as MANY MANY MANY webmasters do, you will sometimes end up with a trade who will add dialers, chained exit or exploits to his sites. Only thing you can do is to remove the trade and move on.

But calling people piss ants, cheaters, ect is just too far out for me and we sure got a good laugh over this.

Anyone who knows me, and there are a few who does, know I fight cheaters with all I got. If I spot a cheater I don't let go before he's down and stay down.

It's your business and I respect that.
I will of course not add your hosted galleries on any of my sites when you don't want it.

But for now I give up... best of luck with your business.

This is truly an amazing topic and has made me aware of a few things

this isnt jsut tgp owners involved........also includes submitters that use sponser content.

you submit to thumb tgps?
do they skim?
guess who is a cheater?

you tgp hosting it and cant forget the host(if they dont respond with action) sponser coud go apeshit on the whole chain......do they?

no of course not....cause its making them income

as for installers popups etc I dislike them 100% and woudnt knoledgly trade with a site using them. but to each is own....he can piss of his surfer all he wants its his site.

but ill go back to lurking jsut wanted to state a point that this is an easy way of cancelling account for more then jsut the tgp owner......imagine submitting for months and months and getitng your traffic up to liek 100k a day.........and your main sponser decides he dont liek his content posted on thumb tgps.....your gonan get the shaft same way kosk or whatever his name did.

so choose your sponsers wisely.

pz,
Phinneus

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=copyright

:)

No one seems to have mentioned this yet.

http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?...1677&area=news

Regardless of how you feel about a tiny thumbnail of your content *sometimes* going to trades, it may still be fully legal in the eyes of a US court.

the theory behind skimming works to the sponsor's benefit. every trade script i have used is set up to return at least 2 to 3 clicks for every click i get in trade. both parties are set up to do this. so yes, while one click on your thumb may not go to your gallery, my TGP will receive net 2 or 3 clicks in return for that which will click on your gallery.

skimming is NOT cj. CJ sites are set up to send ALL clicks to trades, and if i were a sponsor, i would probably take issue. however, i don't know of any TGPs offhand that don't skim 5% or more to trades in return for at least twice the number of clicks sent. sponsors and TGP owners both benefit.

Holy crap I can't believe the stupidity in this thread....

Torn are you honestly telling me you are calling this guy a cheater because he used your "free" hosted galleries on a thumb TGP that skims traffic? So you are claiming because he skims traffic he is a cheater?

Or is it because he has a pop up or a tool bar install? Jesus you better not visit CNN.com those assholes have a few pop ups they must be cheating someone.. Holy crap what would you do if you visited Madthumbs.com or Sublimedirectory.com those assholes must cheat two.. I mean hell they skim traffic, guess you don't want any of their traffic either..

Greenguy I would think someone in your position would have the ability to understand the way a common day TGP works.. Jesus wake up it's not 1998.. you ever heard of UCJ, TM3, epower trader? Dose everyone that uses a traffic trading script or has a pop up on their site make them a cheater in your books? Hell you better not visit 99% of the adult programs out there because I can't count the numbers of programs that have exit consoles.

You guys are truly unbelievable, I have never once had a sponsor that had any issues about me sending hit via a TGP with skimmed traffic.. I hate to say it, but on modern day TGP's you guys are truly clueless..

This thread is insane. If you don't understand how modern TGPs work you shouldn't offer hosted galleries in the first place.

LOL... never fails.... you get one person crying "Torn called this guy a cheater" and everyone jumps in.

Please ANYONE.... show me ANYWHERE I said this guy was a cheater?

Only thing I called him was a "piss ant"….. wow.... a piss ant.... can I go any lower?

And yet still damn near everyone wants to point fingers and say "they all do it" well, no they ALL do not do it. And looking at my best affiliates not one of the top 10 uses this method. (which I got tired of looking and stopped at 10.)

But now more then one person cries "Torn said...." and they fill in the blank with whatever they want to fill it in with, but not with anything that I actually said.

All I said was **MY CONTENT** was being misused and I wanted it to stop. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what silver cash and nasty dollars do, not my problem.

And as many times a day as I go to cnn.com I have not once had Norton popup on me warning me about anything so that was a real good argument.

Don’t use my stuff, that’s your choice, but if you use it you better use it right, and not “what everyone else said it was ok to do”.

Anyone who is a current affiliate of mine and no longer wishes to be, by all means let me know and I will terminate your account. No hard feelings here at all.

Everyone will do what they think is best for them to do…. Unless of course everyone else does something else then we will all do that instead.

Torn maybe my post was a bit harsh, but the reference to CNN.com was meant to be about pop ups. I really believe you should take a look at how 90% of the TGP's out there work. You will find that skimming traffic is a very very common thing.

Everybody can't be the Hun, I truly believe you just do not understand how TGP's work these days. It's ashame you took such drastic measures on someone that was following a common day practice for 90% of the TGP's out there..

You are 100% right you have every right in the world to dictate the terms your content is used. However being your terms are out of the norm of common day sponsors that provide free hosted galleries you should clearly mark this on your site that you do not allows TGP's whom trade traffic to use your FHG's.

IMO this is your fault, I read your site, I saw nothing about a TOS agreement for how to use your hosted galleries. After all how can you expect someone to not use the galleries in a certain way, if you do not tell them they can't. Again it seems you do not understand how most TGP's these days work.

BTW.. I noticed you live in Melbourne, FL. I just moved from their was right off of 192 out by 95.. was born and raised in that town.. Just moved up to Daytona Beach this last month, wish I would have known there was another adult webmaster in town.

Just as a side note I will let you know I personally run a few TGP sites, every single one has sponsor hosted galleries and I trade traffic on them by skimming same as koot was doing. Again This is a very common practice, I personally don't have pop ups or tool bars but a lot of guys do use these methods. It's just a fact of life in adult and even on mainstream websites. You clearly should dictate that you do not want traffic from sites using these methods in a TOS (which I didn't even see a TOS on your site). btw every single sponsor I have ever signed up for I have used one of my traffic skimming TGP's as my example site.. not a single one has ever complained or denied me as a affiliate.

You may want to take this into consideration.. if a site skims 60-70% that means 60-70% of the hits are going to the galleries and 30-40% are going to traffic trades. Sites that do this are constantly growing in size. This means if he sent you a few hundred hits last month , this month could be a thousand or so and it will keep growing.

I hate to say it, but I see several veterans here that really need to educate themselves. Crockett is preaching the gospel truth, brothers.

Whether it "sucks" or not, things work much differently now. Evolve or disappear, your choice.

Anyone that has been asked to remove Torn's hosted galleries: I'd love to invite you to replace them with mine. I get it.

EDIT TO ADD: Did you guys know that many of you are being ridiculed on other boards because of your cluelessness. But the good news is that the link to this thread is bringing new traffic here.

I have to agree with Rictor, although the word that came to my mind is pathetic.

Oh great we definitely need more ill-informed input

CJ is CJ is CJ... face it... you're circle jerkers..


Why does everyone think they have to explain TGP's/CJs to Greeny... Of course he understand what they are. Christ.!


Just because people CJ/TGP and use thumbs to promote other programs sites etc doesn't make it legal or right.. The argument that "it exists .. therefore it is alright" is fundamentally flawed. Sound like the argument a spammer would use.:(

Well that's it I am quitting the biz.. I cant stand being ridiculed on GFY it's such a reputable board.:(

..and now it's Torn's fault... Sheesh

You can all agree with each other, but it doesnt change the situation at all.

DD

Rowan, the issue is not about posting thumbs of other peoples images. That is toltally legal ... as long as the thumbnail is linked to the actual image (gallery). The problem here is the skimming: That a certain percentage of the clicks will go to something else than the image (gallery). There has been no ruling about that by any court as far as I know.

I agree with Greenguy and Torn that it is probably technical illegal to post thumbnails on a thumb tgp that skims a certain percentage of traffic to trades. I don't really see why Torn should put in his T&C that use of his images on a skimming thumb tgp is not allowed, when it is probably technically illegal according to the copyright legislation.

It would be appreciated tho if all the sponsors who are happy to see their images on skimming thumb tgps put in their T&C that it is OK to use their FHGs on skimming tgps. Today it's a silent understanding, but as a thumb tgp webmaster I cannot use a silent understanding to anything if I come across a sponsor who doesn't like it and decide to take me to court.

why would a sponsor not want the TGP on which they are listed to grow their traffic and clicks as much as possible? yes they might give away 5 out of a hundred clicks. but that 5 will return 10 or maybe 20. those 10/20 will click more than once. as someone from another board said, it's the difference between 100% of 10,000 clicks or 70% of 100,000 clicks. which would you rather have? if you're a sponsor, which board would you rather be listed on?

I'm sure 99% of all sponsors who chose to make hosted galleries are more than happy to see them posted on skimming thumb tgps. But that doesn't really help me if it doesn't say so in their terms and they suddenly change their mind. Or if I come across a sponsor like Torn who doesn't want his content on a skimming thumb tgp and he closes my site. Legally Torn is right about this one, I'm afraid. And that's why I think it would be a good idea if all sponsors who like to see their hosted galleries on skimming thumb tgps says so in their terms.

BTW do you think a sponsor would be happy if you skimmed 80% of your traffic to trades ... or 99% ... what's the limit?

Is there a pecking order?

|buddy|
I had a TGP on a free host in 1998.

So why are people still using free hosts for TGPs in 2004 and expecting to stay online?

I seriously cant beleive most of the replies in this thread LOL

Just to make it clear to everyone, running a CJ site and skimming TGP traffic isnt illegal and i would say that a good 95% of TGPs currently in operation today do it in some way shape or form.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some of the long standing webmasters in this business to. Especially as it would seem a lot of the havent got a clue about trading traffic or the law.

Regards,

Lee

I also had 2 servers and a few virtual accounts.

It was a freehost belonging to a friend of mine. But he sold it a few months back. I've put up a blank html page there with just empty head and body tags and it does indeed seem to produce a popup which is not meant to be there. But that's what some freehosts do, I guess they have to make money somehow. I hadn't noticed it before. I didn't put it there.

Remember this, Torn posted on AWI inviting AWI webmasters to join his program. So I joined, and just added gallerys to thumbscript. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/sh...threadid=71774

However, I'd just like to reiterate this one point YES I HAD AN ENTER CONSOLE, NO - I DID NOT PUT VIRUS TROJAN EXPLOIT OR SPYWARE CODE ON MY PAGE.

And no, re-reading this thread, I don't believe that Torn has called me a cheater, but this thread is posted in the "possible cheaters" forum.

I shan't post here again. If you want to continue this discussion please do so at AWI.

What if he went to get gas as well? You didn't give him permission to, but because he did you can now drive a bit farther.

Kloot skims traffic from Torn's galleries to a trade. This (hopefully) increases traffic to Kloot's site. More traffic to Kloot's site = more traffic to Torn's galleries = more money for Kloot AND Torn

Is this illegal? As Torn didn't give permission for Kloot to do this, yes.

Is Torn a clueless idiot? Yes.

Holy Fuck! :D

No one said that skimming is illegal, but back in the day when it all started, there were no "thumb TGP's" & it was just a skim off a text link. Personally, I'm not one to fuck over my surfers with blind links in the hopes that others will fuck over their surfers with other blind links & maybe one of them will buy something when they get fucked & sent to my site. I prefer good old fashioned hard work & marketing skills to get sales.

Now you have webmasters posting a copyrighted image but not sending all the traffic to that site & IMHO that is illegal.

In this case, you also had all kinds of alarms going off because of the malicious pop-up's that came when you clicked as well.

Put yourself in Torn's shoes - you shot this content - it's for your personal website - you see one of the images on someone else's site & click on it, thinking that you'll be going to a gallery on your server. You then get sent to a top list or some other site & have your spyware alarm's going off left & right. You'd be pissed too!

If other sponsor's & content providers want to allow this, that's great - good for them! But we are not talking about anyone other than Torn & Kat! Their website, their content - THEIR RULES!

LOL.... I have still yet to see an "entrance counsel" that set off my Norton 3 times..... But I guess when it’s been removed you can say it was anything you want. Care to explain why the site was taken down over an “entrance counsel”?

Looking forward to seeing everyone in Hollywood, I'll be there From tonight to Monday and more then willing to talk face to face about this or anything else.

Have a good trip everyone!

|bananna|

Torn - I'm sure you & me will be the target of many conversations this weekend :D

Holy... a more clueless group of people about tgp I have never seen in all my days... I will make sure to add Katcash to the list of sponsors I won't be promoting, and I'm glad to know my "shit" tgp traffic is so shitty. I'll keep it all to myself thanks :)

Oh and Torn, you might have been better off going to the affiliate and discussing it with him before actually goign to a board and bashing him.. did you even bother to contact him before you ran here? Damn, that's a fine way to treat an affiliate.

TGP's don't "skim" traffic to be crafty..they do it to fuel trades and encourage growth. Why a sponsor would want to limit the growth of a potentially endless stream of traffic is beyond me. That "skim" can mean the difference between 1000 people going to see that sponsor's gallery and 100,000 people. If the way TGPS are grown and administrated are a problem, by all means it's Torn and Kat's perrogative to discontinue allowing people to use the content in this way.. But it's funny when you realize a lot of the really big programs come to people like us and trust us with their content to brand their girls and their sites. There IS a reason for this, you know.

Just my humble opinion, if you run a pay site and Don't want to have your content used on a thumb tgp that skims it is a business decision I can admire in the fact that you are willing to give up a good 35% to 45% of your income potential on principle. All I can say is Bravo and welcome to the cheese line :)

I can't believe this conversation is even taking place at all. And to think that Torn was on AWI soliciting tgp webmasters to promote his "humble" little site.

Jerked around a bit or not.....TGP's are here to stay and command a sizeable chunk of the total traffic picture........So go ahead and opt out of that corner of the market.......go ahead.......crazier things have been done........like patting yourself on the back because a bunch of linklist guys happen to agree with your position.

Skimming is not your enemy.......the damn "xxx toolbar" is! I hate those damn things and hate it even more when somebody tries to autoinstall one on my machine. I see fewer and fewer sites trying this now.

Amen.

GG I did put myself in thorn's shoes and I did look at his program.. unless I am blind and couldn't see it, there is no TOS on his site. I will state it again every single sponsor program I have ever signed up for, I have used a skimming TGP as my example site, and never once has this ever been a issue with any of them.

Making Torns case the first I've ever seen of a sponsor complaining about skimmed traffic. So being that his rules seem to be out of the norm of 95% of all the other programs providing free hosted galleries, don't you think he should have at least put his rules on his page? How can someone follow rules if they don't know what they are?

Loot said yes he skims, loot said he did have a console (pop up) but he said the auto install is from the free host.. Is that really that hard for you to believe? Dose Porngraph ring any bells in your head? Did that free counter not get sold and the new owner started auto installing toolbars on everyone using his service just like Koot said happened with the free host he was using whom he said was orginally owned by a friend?

While Torn might not have come out and said koot was cheater, he did pretty much did imply the fact, and went as far as sending his host a C&D letter.. Some of you jumped right on the bandwagon and started calling and implying he was a cheater with out even doing any reasearch. Which in fact if you follow the rules on Katcash.com, Koot is not a cheater because there are in fact no rules on the site.

God DAMN, brother! The preachin' is GOOD today! You keep preachin' that Gospel and I'll keep puttin' some cash into the offerin' plate!

Keep on showin' 'em the light, my brotha!



|bananna|

I agree with you almost 100%. If I was the sponsor in question, I would be happy to let anyone do anything they wanted with content I "gave away". To me...it's just good business. I have had the same feelings since the very beginning and don't think they will ever change.

But, if you look at Torn's first post, you will see that one of the problems is the content was being used" to help install whatever crap he is trying to install." I believe that would be "the damn "xxx toolbar"" that you mention or something just as bad. Would I go out policing my content to make sure it wasn't being used for that...No. But, if I stumbled on someone using my content to install something, I think I would be pissed off. I would have written to the advertiser and asked him to stop. I would not have gotten any host involved until I was sure that didn't work. And I would not have terminated the advertiser's account. But, that's just me. I also believe that if you are going to "give away" content and you have rules about using it, you should make sure they are posted clearly.

Until GreenguyandJim, I did nothing but run and market affiliate programs. I believe that is why my thoughts on this subject differ so much from the other regulars on GreenguyandJim. I have always been about the business of making money for the affiliate program. I don't think you will see sponsors coming out of the woodwork saying they would allow this type of thing. Just as you will not see sponsors saying they allow email spamming. But, most of them do. That's just the way it is.

Torn, you and I should really sit down and talk in Florida :)

Can a sponsor tell you that you cant have consoles on your site
or use toolbars or even spyware. Can they cancel you because they dont like your advertising methods

whats next..... Torn tells you what colors your site should be

I think thats a violation of free speech
in fact in canceling your account because you use consoles or spyware he has violated your civil rights. In fact I would bet its actionable.

but of course thats only if you and Torn are in the usa

he made those galleries for tgp owners to use.
90% of tgps skim traffic, if torn made those gallerys and didnt know how tgp's really work then thats really torns problem

Please.

It is not a violation of anyone's civil rights for a business to place limitations on how their product is promoted. In the "brick and mortar" world, you will get told what specific color and brand of ink to use for printed promotional materials by an awful lot of companies.

I don't think most people posting in this thread are nearly as clueless as they are coming off ... this is just the very tired, very overdone, very pointless "to skim or not to skim" conversation wrapped up in a new package.

Incidentally ... was there a clause in the TOS prohibitting promotion of the sponsor on sites also doing autodownloads?

Lets not forget that his tgp got shut down because of this
and at this point is still down

I think this is very unfair to Torn.

Just because he is the first sponsor to actually stand up and say...
"Hey!! don't use my content like this!"

If the TGP had been on a paid host, then I am sure kloot would have had the chance to comply with Torn's request.

Let's just put this behind us and learn something from it.