Here is a hypothetical situation:

What if Kcat was promoting katcash through a gallery she submitted to a skimming tgp and Torn would find it.

If Torn would have acted the same way as he acted towards Kloot:

Torn would have written a thread in a possible cheaters forum where he called Kcat a "little piss ant" and informed that he had just terminated Kcat's account and sent a C&D to Kcat and to her host.
Torn would also post Kcat's domains and information to make sure that this implied cheater is known and her reputation is ruined.
Then Torn would proceed to post the private email address and home address of Kcat.


Does anybody else but me see this kind of behaviour by Torn as WRONG?

Here is another hypothetical situation:

What if you owned a TGP with a logo which is your trademark or brand and you provided it for use by webmasters as a recip 120x60.

It's your logo, your reputation and your copyright.

Then you find that this logo is being linked to malware and other sites which have nothing to do with you every 1 click out of 4 (or whatever ratio).

Do you think that a surfer will click on your logo ever again? How many surfers will never want to visit your TGP again?

I agree that skimming is a traffic building activity etc... but as Bill said, the adult World does not just revolve around skimming TGPs.

I agree that the timing of this incident is unfortunate, but I bet ya kloot would still be online if he hadn't used a free host.

ya see to me this is a big problem. If torn doesnt know how tgps work then he shouldnt be offering hosted gallerys. To offer out hosted gallerys and then say well..... I didnt know tgps worked like that and this is copyright infirdgment. See that makes Torn an idiot (No offence)

This I would like anwsered ......suppose I had a thumb tgp that took submits and that tgp skimed, ... follow me so far ?......
someone premoting torns program submits a gallery with his content that he gave out to his partners, Now I guess Torn is gonna start sending Dmca notices to MY host ????????

If you look at Torns actions it makes all of his content unlinkable

the toolbar is really irrelevant,

As a newbie who has been looking into starting a skimming thumb TGP I would really like to see this answered. It would have very far reaching implications if TGP owners would be forced to police Torn's affiliate program. Especially when you add in DD's (not sure what affiliate program that is) as he has stated that he does not want his content used this way, and the hundreds more that could at any second change their minds on the issue.

The only other thing that concerns me is the lack of a TOS on Torns site. As a newbie if there are no terms stating how a sponsor does or does not want their site promoted, I would have to assume that standard practices would be acceptable.~Ghost

This opinion is not the view of my lovely wife Lliandrin |smooch|

I've read every post in this thread and one thing really stands out. Many of you are too busy insulting each other to really argue your point. Yes, I realize that Torn started this thread with 'little piss ant', and while I'm not defending that, I at least understand his response to the situation as he percieved it to be. He, as the producer is going to have the last word pertaining to how his content is used. Just because his terms of use did not address the use of his content on skimming TGPs does not mean he's unjustified now. There are always going to be unforeseen circumstances and that's why TOU are always evolving. He did not know that the current trend in TGPs is traffic skimming. That does not make him an idiot. Uninformed perhaps, but not an idiot.

I wonder how many of you know every single aspect of the complete realm of the adult industry. If Torn informed you that for every new signup at his paysite, a puppy has to die, you'd be shocked, wouldn't you? (Yes, a ridiculous example, but stay with me here) Well, for him, it was somewhat shocking to find out that a great many TGPs now handle traffic in what has historically been considered a cheating manner. This new model sends the surfer to a location not promised by the link they clicked. That's not horribly honest, is it? Just because there happens to be hundreds, perhaps thousands, of TGPs doing this, does not convert dishonesty into honesty. I too use a trade script on two TGPs. One skims with 90% going the gallery, 10% to trades. The other only uses the script to monitor traffic and build a toplist. No skimming. So yes, I too skim on one of my sites. But I am not about to defend the practice or paint it as a wonderful business model.

In the end, I doubt Torn is worried about losing an affiliate who serves his sites from a free host or one who skims so heavily that the surfer is never going to see the sponsor gallery anyway. The only thing that will result from this thread is a lot of sore feelings. If part of your argument is an insulting attack on the other party, then it is not an argument at all, it is a battle.

We adult webmasters have many more worries of greater import looming on the not-so-distant horizon. Shall we focus on them, or continue this pissing match?

UW,

I haven't insulted Torn, I'm just shocked at the way Torn acted and I'm even more shocked that many people here seem to think that this kind of behaviour is OK.

Who in here thinks that the way Torn acted is the right way to act in this kind of a situation?

(I seriously would like to know this so I can avoid people who think it is OK to act abusively)

Ya know what, I shouldnt have called him an idiot

that was wrong and I am sorry.

For some reason this topic really sets me off.

What I have seen from Torn so far makes me pretty sure that he would send DMCA notice to your host, he would also post all your information (home address,private email address, all your domains etc.) he had to message boards and imply strongly that you are an evil cheater, he would also call you abusive names and try to ruin your business and reputation.



If only more people would act like Torn the world would be a better place.

This post made me happy.
Thank You.

I'm wondering:

Did Torn and DangerDave fully realize the implications of their view on skimming?

They have made all thumb tgps unable to use their free hosted galleries but they have also made all thumb tgps as content police for their programs.

If a submitter submits a gallery made using free content provided by either of these programs the tgp owner is in hot water if he lists this gallery.
The TGP owner and their host would no doubt receive a C&D for listing either sponsors gallery.

If a tgp would receive a C&D because listing a submitters gallery that submitter would not get their galleries listed at that tgp anymore.

In order to protect themselves all thumb tgps have to blacklist both katcash/katvixen and dangerdave's program(s) and all other programs who have a similar view.

Tommy, this is a solid point, and I personally agree with it 100%.

In my personal opinion, Torn made a bonehead move getting pissed about the skim. I'd bet money Torn is kicking himself right now, altho he may not yet fully understand the skim, and like a lot of people, he may still think it's just CJ under another name, which arguably it is, despite the fact that everyone does it, and you can't have modern TGPs without it.

DMCA attacks threaten everybody. It's a dangerous weapon.

We can't know the answer to this. The frightening thing is that Torn may have the legal right to do just what you you give as an example. But so does every other copyright holder in existence. This is the danger of DMCA.

Hosts need to step up and tell us how they are going to protect us from DMCA attacks, because this is not the last time we are going to hear about this.

Abso-fucking-lutely! Untill Torn clarifies his policy in public and in writing you would have to be an idiot to put his content on a gallery or a TGP. (Except maybe for the 5 or 10 TGPs like Richards that don't skim.)

You and I might think it's crazy for him to say "you can't use my content for skimming TGPs.". But it's his content, his decision, and he has to make it. If he decides for no skim, we might think it's dumb, but the only thing we have to say about it at that point is "yes, I'll follow your terms...". or "no, I won't promote your ridiculous program".

And on this point I DISAGREE 100%. The toolbar was the first criminal act that started the whole thing. AND the toolbar was the real cause of Kloot's getting shut down.

Remember, the advancedhosting guy came here and said, "We didn't delete his site...".

We can't know yet what a real host would do faced with this same situation, because kloot was hosted by a theif.

(hopefully these quotes work the way I want them too.)

Bill look at this


He dont know whats goin on but hes ready to send out dmca notices



but when kloot put up the galleries there were no terms and there were no restrictions
Torn made up those terms after the fact .....
he made those terms up 30 or seconds before he sent that dmca notice to Kloots host

also 24 hours to remove something is not a resonable amout of time

I went to another board and was reading up on this. A board where kloot hangs out, He seems to be one of the regulars at the board, seems to be well liked and is treated with respect

I also took and good HARD look at his submits at Tommys. I feel have a GOOD DEPENDABLE way of figuring out who is a cheat and who isnt and Kloot passed easley

I'm pretty sure this has already happened, as there are more people reading this thread than are posting in it.. I have a feeling that there are a lot of gallery listings being pulled, too.

This should be a lesson to smaller program owners. Yes, you have every right to protect and control your copyrighted material in every way you feel neccessary, however outlining acceptable uses in Terms of Service is ABSOLUTELY NECCESSARY, otherwise how are people supposed to know what's acceptable or not? Telekenesis?

I'd like to throw in one quick point.

It's not Dave's program. DangerDave seperated from Outback Cash a while back. So don't call it Dave's program.

Dave's a very strict old-fashioned webmaster. I think that according to his principles, the skim is just another name for circlejerk, and it's a ripoff.

But, don't call it DD's program, that's incorrect.

Good thing us folks not going to FL had something to do while everybody else is gone! LOL

The problem with this thread is there are too many issues, so we're all debating different things. And Torn is gonna have a long read when he gets back. ;)

Item A - The Skim vs. Promotional Content

Item B - The exploit/toolbar crap. Was it on his site or one of his trades?
(Kloot's fault either way, IMO. Who you trade with is still YOUR responsibility to police.)

Item C - Were Torn's actions a little rash?



In future posts, please clarify which Item you're discussing. |jester|

Tommy, I agree with what I think is your main point, which is that Torn shouldn't have been offering hosted galleries if he didn't understand TGP and how they would be used.

In my personal opinion, Torn made several BIG DUMB mistakes. He's going to pay for those mistakes, and he and other sponsors are going to have to clarify their terms because of this.

I don't know Torn, and I don't promote his program. I don't approve of what he did, how he handled the problem.

But I UNDERSTAND what he did. He thought he found a new affiliate using his content for criminal purposes.

He over-reacted. You and I can see that. But he thought he was just defending himself.

It was an unintended consequence that Kloot got deleted so quickly. If he hadn't been hosted on a criminal freehost he would almost certainly still be in business today.

I haven't read Torn's Terms and Conditions, I have no idea what they allow. I agree Torn over-reacted, and went to the cheater board and the DMCA attack too quickly.

But put yourself in his shoes for a second. You check on a new affiliate and the guy's page gives you THREE virus alarms. I think you'd be dammed pissed too. I know I would be.

Then it's Torn's bad luck that on top of the toolbars, he doesn't happen to know about the skim, so he thinks he's being ripped off by a double cheater.

And that starts this whole comedy of errors in motion.

Tommy, I know your system is possibly the best there is, so that's a solid gold endorsement. If I implied that Kloot was responsible for the toolbars, I apologize, based on your endorsement.

It doesn't explain quite why Kloot didn't know his page was autodownloading. Of course I got lots of pages I haven't checked in months myself. Maybe Kloot had a cookie that kept the page from downloading to him.

And, I want to acknowledge again that we only have Torn's word that the page was trying to infect him. Torn might have been mistaken.

I expect Torn will speak up soon to clarify his terms and his actions.

I am not endorsing Kloot and please dont applogize for anything.
I hope I was not to pushy

when you think about this, do you know how far this can reach


anyway I am gonna keep my comments to myself from now on

It is kind of a fun argument, except maybe for poor Kloot and Torn. ;-}

However, Kloot can presumably start his TGP up immediately on a real host that won't mysteriously dissappear. His actual losses should be fairly small. Presumably his trades will forgive him for getting involved with what appears to be a cheating freehost.

Torn's losses could be substantially larger.

People sure got upset.

it is a fun argument,

and you make great points

btw KCat I use your gallerys on a thumb tgp, I am sure you know that though

You can use 'em wherever you like, babe! :)

Jesus, if you guys are gonna drag this thing on into the next milenium, at least GET IT RIGHT!


Tommy - this statement was in relation to SEARCH ENGINE SPAMMERS - and had NOTHING to do with TGP jerkers

Circle jerk TGPs are not the ONLY place that uses hosted gallerys, and so why do they make the rules!! There are plenty on NO-CJ TGPs and linklists and hubs etc etc that all use hosted gallerys.



Bill, Yes I was with OutBack, and have since departed, but I also have my own programs and hosted content/galleries.

There are really two questions here that people are confusing.

1. Is it Torn's right as owner of the imagery to do what he did?

I would say yes.

2. Is it a good business decision to act on your rights?

In this specific case, I have no idea. But, if a sponsor generalized the concept to disallowing skimming on a thumb, I would advise them that they have made a poor business decision.

Things like this crop up in business everyday, not just the porn business. For example, I have had customers fall behind on payments a number of times over the course of any individual year in my bricks and mortar business. Is it my right to throw the account into collections and seek a judgement - yes. Would it be good business to do this in every case ? No, it would be suicidal to my own business given the prevailing practices in the industry.

Same thing here, IMO. It is a sponsors right, in my opinion, to limit the use of thumbs made from their content, but it would be suicidal to disallow skimming given the prevailing practice in the industry. Just because certain practices are common does not make them right, but fighting them may doom your business. It all boils down to a simple, everyday business descision not unlike those made by businesses every day.

^ What he said ^

Hi everyone, sorry we been at Internext since Thursday and the connection there was crappy at best, so I will try and catch up.

I do find it interesting that so many are upset that I called someone a “little piss ant”. Was it professional? No, but in the grand scheme of this thread does it matter? Who here hasn’t seen far worse over far less?

I also find it interesting that people are making comments and then coming back later and admit that they have not read everything.

Have I made mistakes over this? Maybe I have. Am I sorry? No I am not. Will I do things differently in the future? Yes I will.

Most of you still do not understand the lives of those with personal Amateur Sites; we live this 24/7. It’s a much different world when it’s you and your wife/husband in front of the camera. When the only thing you have is your image and reputation to keep your members you will go out of your way to make sure you are not misrepresented in any way. And we are VERY protective of our members as well as our image and reputation with them.

Everyone wants to point out I know nothing of the TGP world, that is not entirely true, I do know some things of it, and yes I did know and have always known “skimming” or "CJ" takes place, but I have only seen one thumb tgp which was just a few months ago and he didn’t skim, and since I do not surf tgp sites this was “new” to me.

I have been to so many sites over the last 4 years and not once have I had any affiliate site set off my Norton. The only sites that has EVER set off my Norton are the thieves who stole my images and put on all their links to whatever crap and sent them to popup hell (and even a few illegal sites) just to make $. And most of those who have done this were from Russia, Romania and other countries outside the US…. even the UK. So when I saw the Norton, and when I saw the “skimming” and when I saw the “who is” being in the UK I thought I saw the same shit I have seen over and over for the past 4 years.

I will still offer TGP’s to those who want to use them, if you do not want to use them, no hard feelings here, I understand. As I have also stated prior, I have every right to say how my content is used and I would like to mention that a new design and setup for KatCash is being worked on and should be done by end of the month, and for the first time in 4 years I will be adding a TOS.

I am amazed that I have started something that turned into this, last I saw, this was on 4 message boards, and from reading the post’s here and at one other board I have no problem with everyone jumping on the bandwagon to “ban Torn” since it is so apparent they have not read the whole story, but just responding to what they heard or what they wanted to read.

No matter what people, this would have never been a thread if I did not get 3 Norton warnings. Total time I would have spent on that site if it had no Norton warnings would not have been enough for me to click on anything since I just wanted to see the site, nothing more. If it was his or his friends or whoever’s fault that my Norton was set off I really don’t care. It was set off. I saw my content, and with my past experience of stolen content being used I terminated the account.

It is not my fault that so many of you are worried I will set a precedent on the use of content that you do not own the copyright on is being used. I did what I thought was in my best interest as I always have. What all the major affiliate sites do is not up to me; I have not and will not start a movement with them or anyone for starting new rules on the TOS for all tgp sites to end skimming. How people want to make their money is their business.

So many have chimed in on this, not many who have posted are even my affiliates, so going out of your way to tell me that you have never made me $ and will never make me $ is really a waste of your time, but if you feel the need feel free.


|peace|

Torn, since you posted back on here I was hoping you could clarify your stand on this issue. As a potential thumbs TGP webmaster do we have to ban your content as it may be used in a way you do not agree with? I dont want this to come off the wrong way but as I simply do not have time to police your affiliate program the most effecient way would be to simply ban it (and any other sponsors who dont want their thumbs used on skimming TGP's)

Thanks
~Ghost

Even program owners & those who shoot their own content don't understand this to the same level, as it's not their face, their image being presented to the world.