What does it take to be lucrative in the freesite game nowadays?

tickler · 2005-10-14, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkster

...researching niches that convert as opposed to just doing general teen submits, .... and researching the heck out of a niche

I would highly recommend checking out some of the TV shoes like Kink, if you can get access to it.

I found out more about latex and all the related products after watching a half hour show, then months of surfing SEs would have provided. Another one recently explained the difference between balloon fetish "players" and "poppers". And they really don't get along with each other.

I even started researching a couple of niches after seeing them on CSI. One show had Plushies & Furries, another episode had a Biting fetish character.

Surfn · 2005-10-14, 06:17 AM

I can tell by how often a person submits their level of commitment to making this a full time biz. And I can tell by the quality of their submits if they are going in the right direction to succeed.

This isn't rocket science. It's just plain hard work.

Simon · 2005-10-14, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickler

I would highly recommend checking out some of the TV shoes like Kink, if you can get access to it.

I found out more about latex and all the related products after watching a half hour show, then months of surfing SEs would have provided. Another one recently explained the difference between balloon fetish "players" and "poppers". And they really don't get along with each other.

I even started researching a couple of niches after seeing them on CSI. One show had Plushies & Furries, another episode had a Biting fetish character.

This is most excellent advice for anyone looking to promote fetishes that they're not personally into.

Niche markets are one thing, fetish niches are something else. When you're selling to a need instead of a want/desire, then the whole platform you build your copy on is different. Having at least a basic understanding of what the fetish is, what drives people to it, how they explore and exploit their fetish, how it's portrayed publicly versus in private... all those things can be important if you want to have your marketing speak to the actual fetishists too and not just the curious newbies.

And yeah, you don't want the balloon players and poppers at the same party. Almost as bad as a group of weekend/bedroom-only bdsm players talking to a bunch of Gorean lifestylers.

Simon

emmanuelle · 2005-10-14, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickler

I would highly recommend checking out some of the TV shoes like Kink, if you can get access to it.

I found out more about latex and all the related products after watching a half hour show, then months of surfing SEs would have provided. Another one recently explained the difference between balloon fetish "players" and "poppers". And they really don't get along with each other.

I even started researching a couple of niches after seeing them on CSI. One show had Plushies & Furries, another episode had a Biting fetish character.

Tickler, I apologize in advance for this.
The producers of Kink, (who I know personally) have no f&$%ing clue. I have never met anyone with their head shoved so high up their rectum.
summary: caveat emptor

If you are looking for a decent fetish reference, I would recommend Deviant Desires, written by Katherine Gates

http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/bo...sbn=1890451037

It will really give you a good idea of what is going on inside the heads of your target market.
Television programs thrive on exploitation and drama to make themselves interesting rather than credible

anteyes · 2005-10-14, 12:22 PM

Just out of curiosity, with the bigger freesite submitters (people who have submitted over 300 or 400 freesites), how many sites do you actually have out there? Are they still bringing in substantial revenue?

Bill · 2005-10-14, 12:29 PM

I'm not trying to discourage anybody from anything. I just think there's a ton of bullshit that flies around in this business, and like I said, I don't think it's nice to taunt people.

If it's so easy to make 50k a year just from freesites, where are the people here in this community, here at GG&Js, that are doing it? All I ever hear is talk about how little money most people are making.

I guess all the 50k from freesites guys only post at gfy.

If you make 360 freesites a year, and get an average of 4 $35 sales per freesite, you can gross 50k. Both of those are unrealistic numbers.

I'm not saying you can't make 50k a year in this biz, absolutely you can.

But, 50k a year from freesites? After a year? Starting from scratch? I don't believe it.

People have a tendency to exaggerate how much money they are making.

How do you think this makes the folks who are only able to make 15k or 20k a year from freesites feel?

sue-fl · 2005-10-14, 01:13 PM

Thanks for the great thread everyone! I make money off of my free sites. Not a 1000 a week but make money. I don't ever expect to make 50k a year it would be nice but I don't have my expectations near that high.

What I have done in the year and a half since I started is spend money. Mostly in content so far. I invested in content and housing before I was making a dime. I have a fake tgp with galleries that I link to on all my free sites. I also have a link list which has all my free sites and my sponsors free sites, plus submits. I have noticed that I'm getting sales now from my tgp, not my link list yet.

So I have invested the money and certainly the time, as I feel like I live on my pc! I usually make four free sites a week, on average. My next step is to invest in some better programs for my pc to make better sites, logos etc.

So can you make a living off of free sites that I don't know. My husband is the income maker this is more or less spending money, and unexpected expensive money for us. So I'm happy with what I'm making a month at this point. Do I want to make more money? Shit yeah and I can tell you I would not be sitting here an average of a least 8 hours a day every day if I didn't.

I hope I'm on the right track with how I'm doing things and it will continue to pay off for me. The first week if ever I make 1000 dollars you'll all hear me celebrating from here.....

Great advice everyone and good luck to all of us!

Surfn · 2005-10-14, 01:55 PM

Life is about choices. Each of us make them every day. You can listen to positive people that try to help or you can listen to negative people who have a hidden agenda.

Most of the posters on this board need help and there are some willing to help them. Others want to shut you out to keep more of the pie for themselves.

The people that are making good money usually help people that are trying and appreciate their help. It's your life and your choice who to listen to.

Good Luck

Linkster · 2005-10-14, 04:13 PM

Bill - please reread what I said - after 1 year with the use of all the tools (hubs etc) along with those 360 free sites (and hopefully people still submit to places like DMOZ and other SEs with a made for SE copy of their free sites) starting that second year $1k a week should be average - to break it down to a certain # of sales per free site is not realistic as you will get sales from your "mousetrap" sites, traffic pumps and hubs that you have built along with these free sites (hopefully) although realistically at the one year point you would really only need 2 sales per free site out there if you were still building as after one year you have 360 plus the sites you are building today.
To those making 15-20k a year from submitting free sites I would only say that you could increase your income quite a bit - its not an easy biz and unfortunately that is why so few actually stay in the free site end of it - that compounded with the fear generation that has plagued this industry for the last year has dropped the number of submitters drastically. To me that just means there are even more opportunities out there

Bill · 2005-10-14, 04:55 PM

Linkster, I feel I know exactly what you mean. Working a whole system, taking advantage of all the traffic oppurtunities out there, tapping search engine money (which is a lot _slower_ these days than it used to be, remember, if you are starting from scratch), I agree, a skilled person could do it.

I believe I could probably do it, for instance. But I sure as hell would hate to have to try.

But that's not from freesites alone. The traffic coming from linklists alone is just not that lucrative these days.

I understand the point you are trying to make - but, I think you are splitting hairs here, and going fairly far outside the original scope of the question.

I don't want people to feel bad because they aren't seeing that 50k a year you are suggesting should be "fairly easy to make".

I keep coming back to one essential point - if it's so easy, where are the people doing it?

Because the only people I see doing it are the oldtimers with established networks and a wealth of contacts and skill and resources.

ArtWilliams · 2005-10-14, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

If you make 360 freesites a year, and get an average of 4 $35 sales per freesite, you can gross 50k. Both of those are unrealistic numbers.

But is the relationship straight line, as you suggest, or exponential? I don't know and maybe some of the more successful people can straighten me out but is there a threshold of sites and links at which you make more money than just a 1:1 ratio?

---art

Bill · 2005-10-16, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artwilliams

But is the relationship straight line, as you suggest, or exponential? I don't know and maybe some of the more successful people can straighten me out but is there a threshold of sites and links at which you make more money than just a 1:1 ratio?

---art

Well, this is a little complicated.

With the submit and forget strategy, it's pretty much a straight line decline. Over time fewer and fewer links will bring traffic to the site, and even if you are using unique keywords the SE traffic will also collapse.

If you support freesites within your own complete network, the length of time that the site draws in signups is much longer. This is what I do, and it's what Linkster is talking about, or rather, a part of what linkster is talking about.

But, when you analyze a freeites performance over a year, you will see for yourself that, on the average, it's possible to asign a value, a number of signups, for each freesite you make.

My measurements suggest a good free site builder can expect to get about 3 full value signups per freesite.

Why is this so low? Because you have to constantly vary niche, site type, and sale stechnique in order to get your 5 sites accepted to the big guys each week.

You can't always use the best content, the best sales method, the best banner, in the best positions. One does one's best, but some percentage of freesites are going to have dissapointing sales. For the freesite that makes ten sales there are two freesites that make a half sale each, or no sales.

You get an average.

Over on GFY blue_spade suggested that figure should be about $60, two $30 signups.

I think for me the average works out to about 3.25 sales per freesite built. I prefer $35 sponsors but you have to factor in the lower value signups. So lets be generous and average it out to $105 per freesite.

(edit: I need to amend this, it was that figure for me at the beginning of 2003. Now, that figure is much lower, but I haven't done the math. I estimate it at about $80-90. But, blue_spade's 2 signups could be closer to my current figure than I like to think.)

Now, with good overall strategy you leverage that out over time, so the freesite maybe makes 3 sales the next year, two the following year, and four the year after that.

Over time, that means we folks with older networks start making pretty decent money.

anteyes · 2005-10-16, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

With the submit and forget strategy, it's pretty much a straight line decline. Over time fewer and fewer links will bring traffic to the site, and even if you are using unique keywords the SE traffic will also collapse.

Sure, it is a decline per individual freesite, but your overall traffic network is at a constant increase. Let's just say as an example that you submit one freesite every day and maintain about 3000 hits to your sites overall. After awhile, every single one of those sites is going to be picked up by search engines and add a little extra traffic. So, you will have the 3000 hits daily + lets just say 10 hits per day per each freesite, so you could almost say that as each day goes by, your overall traffic network increases by x (search engine traffic or whatever else) so there is an increase over time. Link sites, hubs, and otherwise will definetely increase that network and your bottom line as well.

Bill · 2005-10-16, 11:18 PM

In that quote I specified _submit and forget_. That will produce a fairly straight line decline of profitability. Test it. See if I'm wrong.

In the lines you didn't quote I described some of the numbers that could be seen, that I have seen personally, in a complete system. So, I already talked about what you just suggested as an alternative to my comment about the straight decline.

I said this, "Now, with good overall strategy you leverage that out over time, so the freesite maybe makes 3 sales the next year, two the following year, and four the year after that.

Over time, that means we folks with older networks start making pretty decent money."

Traffic doesn't increase endlessly. It tends to reach a average level, and, if you are good at what you do, stay roughly at that level. This level is based on how much work you are doing, and on your traffic strategies, and also on the seasonal and stochastic distribution of traffic generally on any given day or month.

Traffic isn't infinite, and adult traffic has in general been slowly declining and slowly becoming less profitable.

Search engine traffic has also declined, in general, altho some types of pages are doing better now than, say, two years ago. But, the little freesite has much less chance of a listing that will actually bring hits now than ever before.

(I'm simplifying the factors involved in average levels of traffic, for the sake of simplifying this discussion.)

The bottom line is that everyone has to do the measurements for themselves. Some niches and sales strategies might give a better average number of sales per freesite - shemale has that reputation.

So, I invite you to work the numbers. Count how mnay sites per week you can realistically submit, and average out how many sales you get.

tickler · 2005-10-14, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emmanuelle

Tickler, I apologize in advance for this.

Not required E. I was just trying to point out that there are other places besides the net to explore. And many other TV shows also.

Linkster · 2005-10-14, 08:02 PM

artwilliams - it is pretty much exponential if you are using the things I suggest like hubs and other traffic filtering devices. Which is why I stick to the basic notion that anyone that is willing to put the 12-14 hours a day that this would require into actually doing it - I know for a fact that those levels of money can be made - Ive seen it done first-hand, however Im kinda reluctant to point out any names without their permission.

Bill - as far as having to be an old-timer or not - I dont believe that has anything to do with it - the people I have watched do this exact thing have taken it upon themselves to network on this and other boards, go to the shows and build those relationships over that first year that get them a few extra bennies with LLs and other traffic sources. Im sorry but maybe this whole "plan" I am talking about is outside your definition of just making free sites - and you are correct - if someone just wants to spend 2 hours a day making and submitting free sites every day - they are going to be limited to the 10-15k or so a year. I have always considered making free sites a part of a complete free site package which is what I kinda base my thoughts on

mrenaud · 2005-10-14, 08:11 PM

I just got into doing Free sites full time about 4 weeks ago. I'm not up to building one a day yet, I'm getting about 5-6 a week done. I quit my job to do this full time also. I saw the 1000/week # tossed around in this thread, and that's actually my goal. A year from now I hope to be making 1K a week. I would be extremely happy with that result. 1K a week USD is not bad at all when you live in Canada and are 25 years old. That's just my goal though.

I should add that I'm going to be doing 2 galleries a day on top of my free site. I've been told by some very knowlegable people in this biz that's the formula too follow.

So hopefully I'll be here in a year saying "Fuck yeah, I'm finally making 1K a week!". Not that a year is a long time! Buidling a business, any business takes extreme hardwork and dedication and it takes many years for people to get where thay are today.

2005-10-14, 06:17 AM	#2
Surfn If you don’t take a chance the Angels won’t dance Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Earth on occasion Posts: 8,812	I can tell by how often a person submits their level of commitment to making this a full time biz. And I can tell by the quality of their submits if they are going in the right direction to succeed. This isn't rocket science. It's just plain hard work. __________________ Surfn's Links Are you a partner?

2005-10-14, 12:22 PM	#5
anteyes Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 95	Just out of curiosity, with the bigger freesite submitters (people who have submitted over 300 or 400 freesites), how many sites do you actually have out there? Are they still bringing in substantial revenue? __________________ <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"><a href="http://www.pornisevil.com">Porn Is Evil</a> - <a href="http://www.pornisevil.com/webmasters.html">Submit Your Free Sites</a></font>

2005-10-14, 01:55 PM	#8
Surfn If you don’t take a chance the Angels won’t dance Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Earth on occasion Posts: 8,812	Life is about choices. Each of us make them every day. You can listen to positive people that try to help or you can listen to negative people who have a hidden agenda. Most of the posters on this board need help and there are some willing to help them. Others want to shut you out to keep more of the pie for themselves. The people that are making good money usually help people that are trying and appreciate their help. It's your life and your choice who to listen to. Good Luck __________________ Surfn's Links Are you a partner?

2005-10-14, 04:13 PM	#9
Linkster NO! Im not a female - but being a dragon, I do eat them. Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sex Delta Posts: 5,084	Bill - please reread what I said - after 1 year with the use of all the tools (hubs etc) along with those 360 free sites (and hopefully people still submit to places like DMOZ and other SEs with a made for SE copy of their free sites) starting that second year $1k a week should be average - to break it down to a certain # of sales per free site is not realistic as you will get sales from your "mousetrap" sites, traffic pumps and hubs that you have built along with these free sites (hopefully) although realistically at the one year point you would really only need 2 sales per free site out there if you were still building as after one year you have 360 plus the sites you are building today. To those making 15-20k a year from submitting free sites I would only say that you could increase your income quite a bit - its not an easy biz and unfortunately that is why so few actually stay in the free site end of it - that compounded with the fear generation that has plagued this industry for the last year has dropped the number of submitters drastically. To me that just means there are even more opportunities out there __________________ Pussy Chompers Porn Links NSCash

2005-10-14, 08:02 PM	#16
Linkster NO! Im not a female - but being a dragon, I do eat them. Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sex Delta Posts: 5,084	artwilliams - it is pretty much exponential if you are using the things I suggest like hubs and other traffic filtering devices. Which is why I stick to the basic notion that anyone that is willing to put the 12-14 hours a day that this would require into actually doing it - I know for a fact that those levels of money can be made - Ive seen it done first-hand, however Im kinda reluctant to point out any names without their permission. Bill - as far as having to be an old-timer or not - I dont believe that has anything to do with it - the people I have watched do this exact thing have taken it upon themselves to network on this and other boards, go to the shows and build those relationships over that first year that get them a few extra bennies with LLs and other traffic sources. Im sorry but maybe this whole "plan" I am talking about is outside your definition of just making free sites - and you are correct - if someone just wants to spend 2 hours a day making and submitting free sites every day - they are going to be limited to the 10-15k or so a year. I have always considered making free sites a part of a complete free site package which is what I kinda base my thoughts on __________________ Pussy Chompers Porn Links NSCash

2005-10-14, 12:29 PM	#6
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	I'm not trying to discourage anybody from anything. I just think there's a ton of bullshit that flies around in this business, and like I said, I don't think it's nice to taunt people. If it's so easy to make 50k a year just from freesites, where are the people here in this community, here at GG&Js, that are doing it? All I ever hear is talk about how little money most people are making. I guess all the 50k from freesites guys only post at gfy. If you make 360 freesites a year, and get an average of 4 $35 sales per freesite, you can gross 50k. Both of those are unrealistic numbers. I'm not saying you can't make 50k a year in this biz, absolutely you can. But, 50k a year from freesites? After a year? Starting from scratch? I don't believe it. People have a tendency to exaggerate how much money they are making. How do you think this makes the folks who are only able to make 15k or 20k a year from freesites feel?

2005-10-14, 01:13 PM	#7
sue-fl You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 2,837	Thanks for the great thread everyone! I make money off of my free sites. Not a 1000 a week but make money. I don't ever expect to make 50k a year it would be nice but I don't have my expectations near that high. What I have done in the year and a half since I started is spend money. Mostly in content so far. I invested in content and housing before I was making a dime. I have a fake tgp with galleries that I link to on all my free sites. I also have a link list which has all my free sites and my sponsors free sites, plus submits. I have noticed that I'm getting sales now from my tgp, not my link list yet. So I have invested the money and certainly the time, as I feel like I live on my pc! I usually make four free sites a week, on average. My next step is to invest in some better programs for my pc to make better sites, logos etc. So can you make a living off of free sites that I don't know. My husband is the income maker this is more or less spending money, and unexpected expensive money for us. So I'm happy with what I'm making a month at this point. Do I want to make more money? Shit yeah and I can tell you I would not be sitting here an average of a least 8 hours a day every day if I didn't. I hope I'm on the right track with how I'm doing things and it will continue to pay off for me. The first week if ever I make 1000 dollars you'll all hear me celebrating from here..... Great advice everyone and good luck to all of us!

2005-10-14, 04:55 PM	#10
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	Linkster, I feel I know exactly what you mean. Working a whole system, taking advantage of all the traffic oppurtunities out there, tapping search engine money (which is a lot _slower_ these days than it used to be, remember, if you are starting from scratch), I agree, a skilled person could do it. I believe I could probably do it, for instance. But I sure as hell would hate to have to try. But that's not from freesites alone. The traffic coming from linklists alone is just not that lucrative these days. I understand the point you are trying to make - but, I think you are splitting hairs here, and going fairly far outside the original scope of the question. I don't want people to feel bad because they aren't seeing that 50k a year you are suggesting should be "fairly easy to make". I keep coming back to one essential point - if it's so easy, where are the people doing it? Because the only people I see doing it are the oldtimers with established networks and a wealth of contacts and skill and resources.

2005-10-16, 11:18 PM	#14
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	In that quote I specified _submit and forget_. That will produce a fairly straight line decline of profitability. Test it. See if I'm wrong. In the lines you didn't quote I described some of the numbers that could be seen, that I have seen personally, in a complete system. So, I already talked about what you just suggested as an alternative to my comment about the straight decline. I said this, "Now, with good overall strategy you leverage that out over time, so the freesite maybe makes 3 sales the next year, two the following year, and four the year after that. Over time, that means we folks with older networks start making pretty decent money." Traffic doesn't increase endlessly. It tends to reach a average level, and, if you are good at what you do, stay roughly at that level. This level is based on how much work you are doing, and on your traffic strategies, and also on the seasonal and stochastic distribution of traffic generally on any given day or month. Traffic isn't infinite, and adult traffic has in general been slowly declining and slowly becoming less profitable. Search engine traffic has also declined, in general, altho some types of pages are doing better now than, say, two years ago. But, the little freesite has much less chance of a listing that will actually bring hits now than ever before. (I'm simplifying the factors involved in average levels of traffic, for the sake of simplifying this discussion.) The bottom line is that everyone has to do the measurements for themselves. Some niches and sales strategies might give a better average number of sales per freesite - shemale has that reputation. So, I invite you to work the numbers. Count how mnay sites per week you can realistically submit, and average out how many sales you get.

2005-10-14, 08:11 PM	#17
mrenaud If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 240	I just got into doing Free sites full time about 4 weeks ago. I'm not up to building one a day yet, I'm getting about 5-6 a week done. I quit my job to do this full time also. I saw the 1000/week # tossed around in this thread, and that's actually my goal. A year from now I hope to be making 1K a week. I would be extremely happy with that result. 1K a week USD is not bad at all when you live in Canada and are 25 years old. That's just my goal though. I should add that I'm going to be doing 2 galleries a day on top of my free site. I've been told by some very knowlegable people in this biz that's the formula too follow. So hopefully I'll be here in a year saying "Fuck yeah, I'm finally making 1K a week!". Not that a year is a long time! Buidling a business, any business takes extreme hardwork and dedication and it takes many years for people to get where thay are today.