"Political Influence of Adult Sites" and "Free Speech Coalition" pressure.

[Chop Smith]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

Some friends and I sit together in a large circle and jerk each other off while discussing the abundance socially redeeming pornography we've stumbled upon as of late.

Say, if you don't mind, when attending one of those circle jerks knock Chop off your shoulder.

[natalie]

Can I come and watch this circle jerk? And bring a camera cos it sounds interesting.

[Halfdeck]

Trixie, why waste energy attacking RawAlex when he makes a better ally than an enemy? What does ranting about TGPs accomplish, except annoy webmasters who put their sweat and blood into building traffic to their TGP? We all take pride in what we do.

Feminism is a point of contention in this thread because the issue only applies to some of us. That doesn't mean its unimportant. But to move this forward, we need to focus on what matters to everyone.

[Ms Naughty]

Could Greenie or someone post a few poll threads about various issues? (Or could someone tell me how to create a poll on this board, I'm buggered if I know how to do it)

The first one could be regarding labelling:

Poll: What label do you think should be the standard and promoted as such?
1. ICRA label (existing system)
2. A simple <content="adult"> meta tag
3. A more complex tag with varying content levels but still one that is just inserted in the html
4. A meta label combined with V-chip system
5. No label

Not sure if that's all the choices, but it's a start and would give us an idea of what people want. Perhaps this poll could be posted on other boards as well, to get a broader picture of people's opinions.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Chop Smith

Say, if you don't mind, when attending one of those circle jerks knock Chop off your shoulder.

I heard you were a voyeur. I guess that doesn't apply to 20 or so guys jerking off though, eh?

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Trixie

As for Useless' initial charge, it is clear that he didn't understand my points the first time, so what is the point of trying to make them a second time? But fine, I'll try again: I don't think all or even most porn needs to have redeeming qualities. My point was that if we're presenting arguments to anti-porn people, being able to provide examples of porn that DOES have socially redeeming qualities might help us make more convincing arguments.

Do you honesty think you will be able to convince anti-porn people that ANY porn has "socially redeeming qualities"? Trixie, I know you're an intelligent woman and I'm not about to insinuate something other than that, but do you fully understand who those rabid anti-porn people are? We're talking about people who lean so far to the right that they can't go sailing due to the fear of keeling the boat over. Unless we can convince them that their god of choice wants people to lounge naked and fuck on the internet, they aren't going to care about what we've to say. This is my whole point of contention. There is no way for us to add value to pornography. The only thing we can do is hammer home YOUR right to express yourself as you wish, whether they find it objectionable or not.

Red porn is not my bag, baby. But that doesn't mean that I want those cocksuckers saying that you can't do it.

Originally Posted by Trixie

Examples: FurryGirl says, "many feminists are against us" and a few people hear, "FurryGirl is a feminist and she hates us! US! And she is not one of US! Begone, foul feminist!"

Never heard of her.

Originally Posted by Trixie

This is why I try not to waste time hanging around here and other boards -- judging from your posts, it's feels like a waste of time and energy to try to dialogue with some of you guys.

That's not true. I hardly ever argue with people who agree with me.

[MrYum]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

Could Greenie or someone post a few poll threads about various issues? (Or could someone tell me how to create a poll on this board, I'm buggered if I know how to do it)

The first one could be regarding labelling:

Poll: What label do you think should be the standard and promoted as such?
1. ICRA label (existing system)
2. A simple <content="adult"> meta tag
3. A more complex tag with varying content levels but still one that is just inserted in the html
4. A meta label combined with V-chip system
5. No label

Not sure if that's all the choices, but it's a start and would give us an idea of what people want. Perhaps this poll could be posted on other boards as well, to get a broader picture of people's opinions.

That's a fine idea Grandma

Perhaps we can get the ol eye back on the prize

The infighting does us no good whatsoever. Let's keep thing simple for now...see if we can hammer out some basics.

[walrus]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

Poll: What label do you think should be the standard and promoted as such?
1. ICRA label (existing system)
2. A simple <content="adult"> meta tag
3. A more complex tag with varying content levels but still one that is just inserted in the html
4. A meta label combined with V-chip system
5. No label

My personal opinion is fist that no label is not an option, especially for US webmasters because in my most humble opinion if we don't do something ourselves, eventually our government will. Just like they did with steroids in baseball (wtf the US govt. is doing telling an adult what they can and can't do with their body in any fucking manner is way beyond my understanding but that's a different subject). So, in our own interest, something has to be done.

My preference is complex but relevant tags. The reason being that the more relevant the tag is, the more likely major search engines will actually pick it up and use it for SERP. If the major search engines DO pick it up, that will give non-US webmasters an incentive to use the tag as well. Which in the end, helps further the goal of making it possible for all adult material to be kept out of the hands of minors without their parental consent.

But, I'll take almost ANYTHING because the fact is, whatever is put in place will not get much use. The V-Chip in televisions are being used by less than 10% of the homes in the US...according to the last study I remember seeing. Tom, from the FSC, has stated that they are working on a white paper on the subject and I personally am all for tabling the discussion until the FSC publishs it's white paper. At which time, we can tell them how stupid their idea's are.

[Ms Naughty]

Possibilities for individual action:

1. Label existing sites with ICRA - and put info about that labelling on your pages so people know you're making an effort

2. Create your own page detailing how to block porn using a browser, giving info about labels and recommending Nanny software.

3. Create your own "Official Statement" page saying you believe in freedom of speech and are making an effort to keep children away from your sites.

4. Post about labelling/ COPA / political issues in your blog

5. Contribute your technical skills to help FSC set up a decent website

6. Contribute money to help create an advertising campaign about filtering - "A public service brought to you by the adult industry"

7. Write a letter to:
a. The newspaper
b. Your local politician
(this one is scary because it involves publicly sticking your neck out)

8. Think about what individual skills you have and volunteer to offer them, maybe one hour a week, to the FSC, or ACLU, or your lobby group of choice.

9. Think about ways to get our message out - to the politicians and the general public. It doesn't matter how good we are if no-one knows about it.

[MeatPounder]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

Some friends and I sit together in a large circle and jerk each other off while discussing the abundance socially redeeming pornography we've stumbled upon as of late.

Emmanuelle will be pm'ing you shortly about a new niche site I'm sure

[RawAlex]

Trixie, did you honestly read what you posted? Did you think it all the way through?

I like this the best:

judging from your posts, it's feels like a waste of time and energy to try to dialogue with some of you guys.

Would it be different if we were girls? If we had the other set of reproductive organs? Is it, in your mind, a waste of time to try to talk about the production of porn and being a "porn girl" to any guy? Or do you just have that restriction for TGP owners?

It just doesn't get any better than this.

Alex

[Halfdeck]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

Think about what individual skills you have and volunteer to offer them, maybe one hour a week, to the FSC, or ACLU, or your lobby group of choice.

Good idea grandma,

I just emailed a letter to Tom offering my scripting skills, for whatever that's worth, to the FSC. In his response, he said "what will really be helpful is feedback from people in the industry regarding policies and projects that we are developing." Now, I'm off to do a little homework on what policies/projects he's referring to

[MadMax]

I believe we should continue fighting amongst ourselves whilst our detractors get more organized every day amidst their warm fuzzy glow of piety

[Surfn]

Originally Posted by MadMax

I believe we should continue fighting amongst ourselves whilst our detractors get more organized every day amidst their warm fuzzy glow of piety

It's often difficult to corral a herd of independent thinkers even when they are on the same side of the fence

[Ms Naughty]

Originally Posted by Halfdeck

In his response, he said "what will really be helpful is feedback from people in the industry regarding policies and projects that we are developing." Now, I'm off to do a little homework on what policies/projects he's referring to

I'm doing my best not to be negative in this thread, but this one had me frowning. I'd love to give feedback, but on what? How does one find out about these policies and projects? Are they on the website? Are they only available to members via email?

Can you report back on your homework for us?

[Bill]

UW, I would say that porn has a ton of socially redeeming and even enlightening properties, and that we need to be talking about those redeeming properties.

I don't think we are trying to influence the opinion of the religiously anti-sex and the far right. It's the large middle group, who like a little occasional porn and are willing to believe it's healthy, relaxing, and invigorating, that we want to be talking to and convincing that censoring and outlawing porn is anti-constitutional and unhealthy.

Hell, I'd say for most men jerking off to images of strange pussy is the closest thing to transcendence that they are allowed to have, it reduces stress and anger, and it makes the world a better place.

I think we should be saying, "porn is good for people".

[KCat]

I'm absolutely baffled by the responses here. How can anyone argue that putting the porn least likely to offend in the spotlight wouldn't be the best course of action?

Of course all types of porn should be defended, but if you have the option of using porn created by college-educated, non drug addicted, non sexually abused women who have other career opportunities & still choose to create their own brand of personally enjoyable porn, who control all aspects of its creation & who profit directly from it, why the hell wouldn't you? It just seems like a no brainer to me.

I don't think Trixie or Furrygirl are saying that their brand of indie porn is superior or that the standard porn flicks don't have merit. I know I personally enjoy watching some rather raunchy stuff that a lot of women would consider degrading. But just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I should use it in an argument to defend porn!

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

Could Greenie or someone post a few poll threads about various issues?...

Done
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=28776

[Mr. Blue]

Originally Posted by KCat

I'm absolutely baffled by the responses here. How can anyone argue that putting the porn least likely to offend in the spotlight wouldn't be the best course of action?

Of course all types of porn should be defended, but if you have the option of using porn created by college-educated, non drug addicted, non sexually abused women who have other career opportunities & still choose to create their own brand of personally enjoyable porn, who control all aspects of its creation & who profit directly from it, why the hell wouldn't you? It just seems like a no brainer to me.

I don't think Trixie or Furrygirl are saying that their brand of indie porn is superior or that the standard porn flicks don't have merit. I know I personally enjoy watching some rather raunchy stuff that a lot of women would consider degrading. But just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I should use it in an argument to defend porn!

The thing that I wonder about this thread is the following...are we trying to get porn socially accepted or are we trying to show how the government is infringing upon basic freedoms.

I'm not a slick marketing type guy, but if I was trying to get people to support my cause I would be wrapping it in the most palatable pill imaginable.

If someone came up to me and said write an argument on this topic for the average person I would hammer home almost nothing about porn itself, but instead discuss freedoms of speech, expression, etc. Most Americans wouldn't openly admit they support porn or even accept porn, but tell them the government is infringing on their freedoms and not only will they back it, they'll be foaming at the mouth mad to back it.

American's on the whole are brainwashed little patriots deep down, hammer home that your freedoms are being taken away, you'll get action. If you try to make them socially accept porn it'll be doomed.

[RawAlex]

Kcat, as Mr Blue said, I don't think it is about "most socially acceptable porn", because more than 50% of americans have watched or actively watch porn, but they would never admit it.

Start talking about freedom of speech, and the ACLU and all those other groups will form up behind you, supporting you to the very end.

I think this is more about not putting the WRONG foot forward. You do not want to give the enemies of porn more ammo to work from. While I support the freedom of speech for red sites, example, I also think that they would be fodder for the media and for the members of Congress, so I don't think that they are a good issue to fight on. Nor do I think that gagging sites, or bondage sites, or bukkakke sites would be good examples to use (and thus the people who operate them are not the best representitives to talk about porn, because we want the world to get the message, not to get lost in the person presenting it).

The sad fact is the best way in my mind to portray porn is with a simple guy meets girl, guy fucks girl site. Yes, it is walmart porn, but walmart porn is what the public is generally buying, and what they find socially acceptable. With social exceptance we are more likely to get the message out there, rather than starting a debate about the messanger.

Alex

[Useless]

Putting an air freshener in a shit house doesn't remove the fact that someone just shat there.

[DJilla]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blue

I'm not a slick marketing type guy, but if I was trying to get people to support my cause I would be wrapping it in the most palatable pill imaginable.

If someone came up to me and said write an argument on this topic for the average person I would hammer home almost nothing about porn itself, but instead discuss freedoms of speech, expression, etc. Most Americans wouldn't openly admit they support porn or even accept porn, but tell them the government is infringing on their freedoms and not only will they back it, they'll be foaming at the mouth mad to back it.

American's on the whole are brainwashed little patriots deep down, hammer home that your freedoms are being taken away, you'll get action. If you try to make them socially accept porn it'll be doomed.

Well Said!
I've mentioned similar sentiments and can tell you also that this would be the generally "recommended" approach if you were to ask your average PR person their opinoin.

[DJilla]

Jeesh! Ya know I have a handful of feminist friends, personally I like strong women, so I feel comfortable in saying this to you all; one common denominator that many of you seem to share is that you always rise to the slightest bait and are ready to fight. Then once you get started nothing else is important over winning your point, argument, whatever. On a board, this equates to hijacking a topic and in this case, one that’s kinda important. In a few sentences (with respect) let me say what I’ve told my friends when they get they’re nose bent out of shape at a party or whatever… “calm down”. You don’t have to put on battle dress over every little perceived slight or if you do then just start a thread to vent over. Try and focus on what we CAN agree to work towards together.

You girls(women)are a very important part of this dialogue and emerging movement of adult WM’s organizing themselves into some kind of united voice. Also, the more militant of you are important because of the fact that you ARE out there pushing the edges. The further you push the more likely it is that we’ll get a better mainstream compromise. Heck, the fact that TastyTrixie even HAS a manifesto is a credit to her sincerity. It’s more than a lot of WMs have bothered to accomplish so far. BUT, not everybody is going to dig you or your attitude. That comes with the territory. Being tough is not the same thing as being combative. We have certain missions in common. Stay cool, stay focused, stay here.

[KCat]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

I think this is more about not putting the WRONG foot forward. You do not want to give the enemies of porn more ammo to work from. While I support the freedom of speech for red sites, example, I also think that they would be fodder for the media and for the members of Congress, so I don't think that they are a good issue to fight on. Nor do I think that gagging sites, or bondage sites, or bukkakke sites would be good examples to use (and thus the people who operate them are not the best representitives to talk about porn, because we want the world to get the message, not to get lost in the person presenting it).

I totally agree. Since the red sites were brought up again, it bears saying that no matter how intelligent & articulate the women are who run sites in that niche, that is not a place we want to go with this fight. John Q Public is not going to see red porn & say, "How wonderful that these women are celebrating their natural cycles!"

Like Mr. Blue said, I agree that the best course of action is focusing on how freedom of speech is being infringed upon, but I still think having a performer who creates her own content without being "degraded" would help. We're talking about infringing on her right to create the content & the public's right to view the content.

Does anyone watch the show Family Business? I think Adam Glasser does a fantastic job of challenging the stereotype of smarmy porn producer. He's relatable, he's likeable, he seems like a good dad & has a great relationship with his mom. And he treats the performers with respect.

More Adams & less Rob Blacks can only help this fight.

[Bill]

I've long ago given up trying to figure out what you guys are fighting about. All this yelling is making no sense at all to me.

You guys have all gone crazy, as far as I can tell. I can imagine what out FSC guests think of all this.

Next week, when the fire has died down, I plan on starting a new Free Speech Coalition thread in which we can get back to the political business at hand.

You are now returning to your regularly scheduled dark comedy.