Bush can't have it both ways - 2257

[tickler]

Talking about illegal immagrants, but...................
Dubyah: "You know, our small business owners are not document checkers."
http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?P...tent_ID=265452

[MeatPounder]

LOL, I read that...

[virgohippy]

Mabye we should have some tamper proof cards for this industry too. Imagine the number of cheats that would be eliminated!

"...show me your tamper-proof card before I hire you. And if they do, fine. But if they don't, say, I'm not hiring you. You got to have the card to get work."

edit: Sorry... my brain is too fuzzy to make a decent sarcastic remark.

[juggernaut]

This idea is such a dumb one. Tamper proof card, please. A laminated card is tamper proof. You open and shit rips all over. Now why would someone go get a card if they are not even getting a SS#. And I would love to see the employer who has a farm where shit is going to die on the branch in a few days if they don't get it picked. Well see how quickly they start looking over tamper proof cards when it's down to the wire. Durring those times you can show the famer a dam baseball card and he would let you work. For me this is simple. stop with all the bullshit and just hire more people to work the border. put up two 40 ft walls with a nice 30 foot channel in between them and fill it with some dogs that are man eaters. Maybe 20 or 30 dogs every 500 yards. If for nothing else it will smell like shit so bad no one will even want to cross that section.

[RawAlex]

Jug, the reality of the situaiton will sadly come clear on Monday - The US south has already been effectively overrun by immigrants (many illegals) and enough of them vote that no politician is willing ot cut off his balls to get the job done.

Securing the US border could be accomplished in any number of ways. I have always felt that having a number of US military installations moved from other places and put near the border would help out tremendously. Declare most of the land as bombing test sites, military test ranges, and secured military facilities, and then put your national guard and whatnot on duty to protect the facilities, and suddenly border crossing would drop dramatically.

If anyone was serious about immigration, they would in major force busting the day laborers and whatnot and hustling the people who hire them until the market place dries up. Take the economic incentives away, and the problem will shrink.

Alex

[Tommy]

juggernaut

a tamper proof card is very possible
use some of those water marks they use on money and that holographic ink

they could also combine that with an online database that could have a photo

the photo online has to match the photo on the card

if the fruit is gonna go bad it doesn't allow you to break the law

a lot of businesses could make a lot more money by breaking the law but they don't get a pass so why should farmers

I say fuck the farmers !!!!
let them pay a decent wage and hire Americans


the same argument was made for slavery but instead of picking fruit they were picking cotton

it was BS then and its BS now

[virgohippy]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

If anyone was serious about immigration, they would in major force busting the day laborers and whatnot and hustling the people who hire them until the market place dries up. Take the economic incentives away, and the problem will shrink.

Maybe it's because I've lived in California all my life, but wouldn't it be self-defeating to take away economic incentives? I mean, sure, we can make it economically harder for the immigrants... but we'd just be fucking with our own local economies in the meantime.

Originally Posted by Tommy

the same argument was made for slavery but instead of picking fruit they were picking cotton

I'm not sure I understand you Tommy, but which argument was that? Cuz it seems to me the problem isn't that people living in poverse conditions are unable to find a way up... it's that they've found one that's beneficial for many, though still illegal.

[tickler]

Didn't mean to start off an immgration debate. I was referring to this little piece of information.
"But despite President Bush's recognition that "our small business owners are not document checkers," the U.S. Department of Justice will hold some employers to account if it turns out that people they have employed have used "false papers" ie: The adult industry. "

"such as when an adult producer accepts a minor's fraudulent identification and uses that person in a sexually explicit production "

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Jug, the reality of the situaiton will sadly come clear on Monday - The US south has already been effectively overrun by immigrants (many illegals) and enough of them vote that no politician is willing ot cut off his balls to get the job done.

Not sure I understand you here Alex. Illegals can't vote. Even legal ones like my wife. Only citizens can vote, my wife is a perminate resident which means she only has the rights of a US citizen but still can't vote. Greencard holders are not citizens, it's only a card for work purposes but not voting unless that has changed.

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Securing the US border could be accomplished in any number of ways. I have always felt that having a number of US military installations moved from other places and put near the border would help out tremendously. Declare most of the land as bombing test sites, military test ranges, and secured military facilities, and then put your national guard and whatnot on duty to protect the facilities, and suddenly border crossing would drop dramatically.

Agree 100% only problem is they won't put the NG on this duty for 1 reason, money. Not for the short term cost but the long term, the NG would fight to get this duty classified as a danger zone which would mean more pay, which in the end would mean a higher pension. I know I have been there with the bridges and tunnels. They would put us on duty for 89 days, because anything over 90 gets listed as active duty time which counts towards retirement points. After 1 week of leave they drop you back on duty for another 89 days. Fucked up shit but that's what they do. Also this would need to be a fulltime gig, this could not be completed with a weekend force. Not to mention everytime someone walks off a base with an M-16 you have major local legal issues. A NG soldier is a federal soldier but in order to fire their weapon they need the ok from a state agency. What some people here don't know is the NG guys/gals at these bridges and tunnels do not have ammo in their rifles, or at least they are not supposed to. Also they cannot fire on a hostile unless given the order from a state trooper. But I agree this would be a better way, if they could work out the issues.

Originally Posted by RawAlex

If anyone was serious about immigration, they would in major force busting the day laborers and whatnot and hustling the people who hire them until the market place dries up. Take the economic incentives away, and the problem will shrink.

Alex

Agree again, problem is this will go much deeper for the short term if not longer. Allot of industries who use these guys are using them for cost savings. Take away the savings and the customer gets pissed and stops buying. I think it would be better to allow prison workers to do this work along with people on welfair. You want help from the government you have to earn it for a period of time. It would be interesting to see how many people stop having babies just for a paycheck.

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted by Tommy

juggernaut

a tamper proof card is very possible
use some of those water marks they use on money and that holographic ink

they could also combine that with an online database that could have a photo

the photo online has to match the photo on the card

if the fruit is gonna go bad it doesn't allow you to break the law

a lot of businesses could make a lot more money by breaking the law but they don't get a pass so why should farmers

I say fuck the farmers !!!!
let them pay a decent wage and hire Americans


the same argument was made for slavery but instead of picking fruit they were picking cotton

it was BS then and its BS now

Tom I agree what I was getting at is we already have a tamper proof system, it's called lamination. Ever try to cut your DL open when you were younger in order to fake your age for drinking? Can't be done. They can come up with a card all they want but people who are comming here don't care about cards be it a fake SS or otherwise. The farmers and construction etc don't care either so a card is not going to do any good for anyone. It's the same thing with registering a handgun or rifle. People claim that me registering my weapons will help stop street violence when it fact all that does is allow the cops to know who in the town has what guns and when the government decides to take that right away it's easy for them to find you. You can register for a permit but that does not mean you bought a gun so this would just cut down man searching time for them. But that's still not going to stop joe gangbanger from getting a illegal gun to blow someone way.
The problem with the famers paying a good wage is most people dont want to pay $10 for a little box of strawberries. If the farmer is forced to do this along with the construction, cleaning, backroom dishwashers etc the cost gets past on to the consumer who in the end won't pay the higher prices because they are already used to paying a few bucks for items. If those items go up in price the consumer will stop buying them and the business goes under, which in the end if we want to be dramatic could end up costing the consumer anyway. Joe blow can't run his business and thus shuts down and now has to go on welfair in order to make ends meet. And we end up paying anyway.

[RawAlex]

Virgohippy: Remove the incentives for the illegals, increase the incentives for the legals. Remember, if you remove so many illegals from the "working " class, the value of those who remain will go up. Suddenly LEGAL immigrants will see better job chances and better pay. Legal immigrants should realize that they hurt themselves by encouraging the illegals to come in and undercut the marketplace.

juggernaut, there would be a short term issue with labor and costs, but much like the cost of gas, people adapt and move along with their lives. If getting your lawn cut went up 25% next year, you would bitch and pay the bill anyway. In the mean time, you go from paying an illegal to live in america, and help a legal to make a real living.

I understand that they cannot vote, but they can make one fuck of alot of noise and that is often about as much as a vote. I am guessing that a huge percentage of the people protesting on Monday don't have the right to vote, but they will be fucking up every politicians mind for the next few years as a result anyway.

Alex

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

juggernaut, there would be a short term issue with labor and costs, but much like the cost of gas, people adapt and move along with their lives. If getting your lawn cut went up 25% next year, you would bitch and pay the bill anyway. In the mean time, you go from paying an illegal to live in america, and help a legal to make a real living.

I understand that they cannot vote, but they can make one fuck of alot of noise and that is often about as much as a vote. I am guessing that a huge percentage of the people protesting on Monday don't have the right to vote, but they will be fucking up every politicians mind for the next few years as a result anyway.

Alex

1st my lawn is only 10ft be 10ft and by the time all the dogs in the area are done with it I dont want to have a lawn. Just fucking around. lol.You are correct, one thing is for sure this monday you will not see anyone asking for voter registration cards. They will just asume they all can vote. Funny how this did side track from 2257 just goes to show you how everyone hates talking about that now lol. Ok well the wifey is gone to work for a few hours and i'm off to kill darth vader lol

[virgohippy]

Sorry. I got caught up in all the fun of talking issues.

2257 type stuff views seem to have a fairly general consensus in this forum. What's left to discuss?

[Tommy]

eh so the thread gets hijacked by immigration

juggernaut
in my opinion the farmer/fruit argument just doesn't hold water
farms are just regular businesses, no better no worse

they cant be allowed to violate the law just cause it will raise the price of apples by a dollar a dozen

HEY how about this
let me violate credit card commerce laws and i will lower my prices

virgohippy during the civil war
plantation owners wanted to keep slavery legal just to pick cotton

today farmers argue that they should be allowed to violate the law so the illegals can pick berries


the way i see it
there should be a 40 to 50 foot high concrete wall running along the boarder like something out of an old Alcatraz movie
with gun towers every 200 yards or so

[[BV]]

Originally Posted by Tommy

I say fuck the farmers !!!!
let them pay a decent wage and hire Americans

pffft
You won't find any. Too fucking lazy and would rather sit back and collect food stamps, wic and all the other free bullshit they get. I know first hand from many years working in the fern business in Florida. Out of thousands and thousands of fern cutters Mexicans are the only ones willing to do the work.

It's not a money issue either because these fern cutters make good money. over $100 a day and still they send their wife down to collect the foodstamps and free stuff. (and the wives are cutting fern also) I don't know how they do it.

Hey, at least they are working, not like all the other lazy no good fuckers that bleed off the welfare system. Makes me sick because I am paying for it along with all the other taxpayers.

[FanTC]

Originally Posted by Tommy

the way i see it
there should be a 40 to 50 foot high concrete wall running along the boarder like something out of an old Alcatraz movie
with gun towers every 200 yards or so

Build that wall about 200 yards north of the border, transport all prisoners into that area between the wall and the border, then man the towers with prison guards.

Anybody coming in illegally will be jumping directly into prison, and if the murderers and other vile types escape south, at least they are out of our hair. That solves the illegal problem, reforms the prison system, is not inhumane, and saves a fortune in taxes. Problem solved!

[SirMoby]

As we've seen in Iraq even with $billions of dollars you can't secure a border that large. The only option is to remove the desire for illegals to cross the border and that can only be done by improving the conditions in MX and making it difficult to earn dollars here.

It's interesting that the Tomato Industry has thrived in California after they complained that they needed cheap labor. When the price of labor went up they used technology to cut costs and now production has increased drastically. I guess they just needed some fucking intelligence to solve the expensive labor issue.

Every time I hear we can't get American workers to do X at any price. It always seems that people are paying less then $11 an hour to do X. $11 an hour is still at the poverty level in the USA. It's safer to care for a family while on Medicare in the USA then it is to do it while in poverty.

Remember, Medicare includes health care for your children. Poverty does not so unless an American worker can make at least $12.50 an hour they're better off not working.

If that makes you sick then do the math, check the Medicare laws in Florida and then get back to us.

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by tickler

Talking about illegal immagrants, but...................
Dubyah: "You know, our small business owners are not document checkers."
http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?P...tent_ID=265452

He does make the case very strongly here. If the same record keeping was applied to farmers then they could get 5 years for each time an illegal worked for them. That would mean not just illegal but each job that illegal did. Today they dug a ditch, loaded a truck and cut ferns (3 counts).

[RawAlex]

Fear of immigration busts slow florida construction industry:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060429/D8H9M7B80.html

If you ever really wondered how many illegals are out there stealing jobs, well... there is the proof.

Alex

[Tommy]

another BS thing is this guest worker program

numbers of Illegals range from 10 to 20 million

thats a huge difference

how can you say you need a guest worker program if you dont know how many illegals you have in the country

[T Pat]

I first heard about the May 1st boycott from a relative of my wife’s that works for Stanford University, a couple months ago (over half of the kitchen Staff at the University are Illegal Aliens) and have been following the issue closely since.
La Raza was the first Hispanic group that realized the boycott is a mistake and will piss off Americans.
Then Azteca Television sent out hundreds of thousands of flyers saying the boycott is a big mistake and will backfire.
President Fox has demanded that all Mexican Embassy personnel work a normal day and has pleaded with his people to ignore the boycott.
Bishop Roger Mahoney and the double dipping Catholic Church have reversed their original position on the boycott and are now telling the Catholic Sheep to work a normal day and join in on the boycott after work and school. (I’ve always been amassed at the Catholic Mexican Whores that would take my money, kiss it do the sign of the cross and five minutes latter be buck ass naked puffin on my love muscle. My Wife’s Aunt has opened my eyes to what happens with the money, the hooker gives the Church %10 then sends as much money as she can afford back to her family who the gives the Church %10. The good Catholic Illegal Aliens do the same. If the Catholic Church really wanted to help they would open the Vatican Vaults and be giving money to the poor rather than taking money from them).
The California State Senate has voted to support the boycott proving that the majority of California State Senators are whores.
In Mexico all U.S. businesses and products are going to be boycotted and some PRI (the old corrupt Mexican ruling party) officials are calling Fox an American lap dog and are coming to Los Angeles to show support of the boycott and meet with the Mayor.

I have given my wife permission to shop till she drops on May 1st. to do our part to counteract the boycott and I urge all of you to do the same

[Lemmy]

You could put up a high voltage elctric fence from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico and post armed guards with rabid pitbulls and a license to kill every 100 yards, but as long as someone is willing to hire illegal aliens they would still find a way to get in.

If you want to stop illegal immigration go after the employers who are hiring them, make it hurt *really* bad financially. But be prepared to pay more for a lot of products and services that are currently provided by undocumented people working for peanuts. You can't have it both ways.

[virgohippy]

Originally Posted by Lemmy

If you want to stop illegal immigration go after the employers who are hiring them, make it hurt *really* bad financially. But be prepared to pay more for a lot of products and services that are currently provided by undocumented people working for peanuts. You can't have it both ways.

But wouldn't that slow down the economy, thereby making less jobs available for the educated worker?

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by virgohippy

But wouldn't that slow down the economy, thereby making less jobs available for the educated worker?

Of course there would be a temporary slowdown. 5 years ago the slowdown would have been small. Today it will be a bigger and the size of the slowdown will grow every day but sooner or later it has to happen. If it never happens then our economy will start to stagnate since our economy will be based on cheap labor instead of innovation.

Oh wait. WTF am I saying? That change in our economy has already taken place.

Actually there is still time to save this country but we have to act now as we are already becoming dependant upon the cheap labor from Mexico and China. In a few more years it will be done.

[virgohippy]

I've always thought it was cheap laber which has allowed us to remain competitive with countries like Mexico and China.