State of Michigan sends out "anti-spam" letter

RawAlex · 2006-03-03, 02:32 PM

I have a sense of humor about politicians run amock, but this one pretty much sizzles my bacon.

http://www.monolithnet.com/michigan/michcover.jpg

and then

http://www.monolithnet.com/michigan/michletter.jpg

What the fuck are these people thinking? I am sorry, but the only people who are on any mailing list I own are double opt-in (confirmed box) people who have asked to get my mailings (which I have not sent out more than a couple of times in a year). I don't spam, I don't send UCE, etc.

Who the fuck do they think they are sending me a warning? How do they think that they can impose state US law on a Canadian in Canada?

Anyone have a clue what these fuckheads are up to?

Alex

glowlite · 2006-03-03, 02:46 PM

Was it specifially addressed to you and/or your business name?

RawAlex · 2006-03-03, 03:11 PM

Yes, the envelope was specifically addressed to me / my business name.

Alex

glowlite · 2006-03-03, 03:39 PM

I briefly went through their Protection Registry Act and it reaches back to 2004. It compares somewhat to the Do Not Call list. If the "crime" is commited in Michigan it doesn't matter where you live or where your biz is domiciled.

I'd say purge your data base of MI addresses so as to never be bothered with it. Or resend an opt-in to MI addresses if they have any $$$ marketing value.

RawAlex · 2006-03-03, 03:52 PM

glowlite, there is no easy way to tell what is an MI address. Example, users from MI using AOL, or people who opted in while living in ohio who moved to MI, etc.

For these reasons, MI is attempting to regulate international business AT MY EXPENSE (at 7/10 of a cent per address, I would be looking at thousands of dollars to check existing clients, and an ongoing expense moving forward - for clients who have to comfirm opt in to get any mails (which I send VERY rarely if ever). I would have to check all user email addresses from all over the world because there is no simple way to determine if the user CURRENTLY is in MI.

It isn't anywhere near as easy as you might think.

Alex

Loganp8000 · 2006-03-03, 03:54 PM

US thinks they can police the whole world. Makes me Ill. I would be pissed if I had an opt-in list, lived in Canada, and got that piece of mail. Send them a formal letter back, telling them your 100% legit and to leave you alone or face harrasment charges!

ALOHA

MrYum · 2006-03-03, 04:16 PM

Damn, wish I had some good advice for ya Alex

That DOES suck wind big time

RawAlex · 2006-03-03, 04:30 PM

The contents inside the envelope were not personally addressed (I posted everything that was in the envelope) but it was personally addresses (computer label) on the outside.

My feeling is that someone might have used one of my (numerous) domains on a joejob, and rather than doing a little detective work, the minions just mail shit out the door like that.

Alex

Maj. Stress · 2006-03-03, 06:56 PM

Raw Alex,
Letters like that make good trash can filler.

quest · 2006-03-03, 09:39 PM

Wow Alex,
What can anyone say except my state certainly sucks...

I did get the following from the ACLU site though:

Quote:

The ACLU has brought other successful challenges to state "harmful-to-minors" laws in Michigan, New Mexico, New York, Arizona and Vermont. A case brought in Virginia also resulted in a "harmful-to-minors" law being struck down. The ACLU noted that the state challenges were successful because of the impossibility of verifying the age as well as location of Internet users, as the law requires.

Not sure what those "successful challenges" were though.

Doesn't seem such a thing could ever hold up in court,
More than likely there looking for money as Jennifer [the Governor]
has pretty much broke the state.

Here is an online ACLU Michigan complaint form:
http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=Complaint_Form

Ben

spacemanspiff · 2006-03-04, 01:51 PM

Seems to me that if they really wanted to protect those email addresses from UCE they would make their database available for download for free. It wouldn't be that hard to come up with a script to compare the databases. Hell, I think I could do it, and I can't code my way out of a wet paper bag.

MonsterPartners · 2006-03-04, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacemanspiff

Seems to me that if they really wanted to protect those email addresses from UCE they would make their database available for download for free. It wouldn't be that hard to come up with a script to compare the databases. Hell, I think I could do it, and I can't code my way out of a wet paper bag.

Exactly, if protection was so important, databases should be free. Instead they charge what could amount to very large sums of money. Just another government money grab

RawAlex · 2006-03-04, 10:45 PM

It is a money grab alright, because to remain "compliant" you would have to check each and every email address every time you use it to see if the name has been added to the "do not send list". An AOL member could move from one state to another and bang, you could be in violation even through you previously checked. Someone could add their name, and you would not get notification... you would have to query every address again to see if any new ones would get in there.

I would be looking at thousands of dollars every time I send a mailing to a complete, double opt-in real confirmed list.

It is total bullshit.

Alex

MadMax · 2006-03-05, 11:48 PM

Yet another reason I hate our Governor. I hated that bitch when she was a Wayne County prosecutor making shady back-room deals for the city of Detroit, I hated her when she was state attorney general and her husband was getting mega-million dollar no-bid contracts and not delivering on them, and I especially hate her now that she's governor, presiding over one of the worst periods in history for Michigan's economy and just making the situation worse.

This is nothing more than yet another money grab from the office of a skank who can't balance a budget and comes up with some of the most assinine plans imaginable to extort money from people.

A couple years ago she managed to get records from a bunch of internet cigarette sales companies and sent out tens of millions of dollars in tax bills to unsuspecting taxpayers for "back taxes" on the smokes they'd bought online. People lost their houses over that fiasco.

In case I haven't been clear, I FUCKING HATE JENNIFER GRANHOLM AND ANYONE DUMB ENOUGH TO SUPPORT HER, AND I WISH CANADA WOULD REPOSSESS HER SORRY ASS.

Alex, can you see if anyone in your government would be interested in forcibly removing her from the Governor's office? She IS Canadian after all. Maybe there's some arcane passage in NAFTA that will help. It would help solve your current problem and one of my long term problems

Dr Bizzaro · 2006-03-07, 07:08 AM

I got that letter in the mail. I couldnt figure out why the fuck they sent it to me.

Wazza · 2006-03-07, 07:15 AM

I too received one today - which is truly weird because I've never sent one commercial email to anyone.

I'd say it's possible that they've run through every adult whois and fired one off to all of us. Or they've cocked up and assumed that I was the one doing the sending when some fuck monkey has used one of my doms as the fake sender of spam emails.

But, as Alex says, they can take their fee and cram it fairly and squarely where the sun don't shine... I'm not complying with American laws until you liberate us by bombing us back into the 3rd world...

Simon · 2006-03-07, 07:35 AM

We got one too.

Max, I have to agree, your governor is trying her hand at the extortion racket. And doesn't even have the sense to package it in a way that would make her victims willing to pay the tariff.

This doesn't give me anywhere near the concerns that Yahoo and AOL moving to charging for delivering email does. We have a double opt-in newsletter list, pretty good size, and those two represent nearly 40% of the addresses on the list.

Toolz · 2006-03-07, 09:25 AM

Simon,

Would that be a great thing though if Yahoo and AOL paid to charge for delivery? Seems to me this would just be guaranteed delivery and so long as you had a compliant list and were following Can-Spam people would be all for it.

RawAlex · 2006-03-07, 10:28 AM

Toolz, the problem is cost...

Let's say they want 1 cent per email... that is pretty low.

Let's say your email click out rate is 1%, which would be pretty high.

You have a site that converts 1 in 200 on your mailer traffic.

100* 200 * 0.01 = $200 costs per sale. In order to get that down to "break even" for most operators, the cost from aol would have to be in the range of 1/10 of a cent per mail - otherwise the cost price of doing business would make it impossible.

Alex

RawAlex · 2006-03-07, 10:34 AM

Let me add to this for a minute...

let's say each state has a do-not-send list that must be consulted before every mailing. Let's say that the US feds also have a list. Combined it costs 3 cents per mailing to check addresses in all these different places to make sure that nobody has added themselves onto the list since you last mailed.

Now you are sitting at 4 cents per mail, of a whopping $800 cost per sale.

"do not spam" lists are the zoning laws of the internet. They attempt to limit free speech not by banning the speech, but instead by making it almost impossible to comply with non-related regulations.

Even if it adds only 1 cent to your mailing (2 cents total) you are looking at a net cost of $400 per sale.

Nobody but nobody will mail completely legally and make money.

Alex

2006-03-03, 02:32 PM	#1
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	State of Michigan sends out "anti-spam" letter I have a sense of humor about politicians run amock, but this one pretty much sizzles my bacon. http://www.monolithnet.com/michigan/michcover.jpg and then http://www.monolithnet.com/michigan/michletter.jpg What the fuck are these people thinking? I am sorry, but the only people who are on any mailing list I own are double opt-in (confirmed box) people who have asked to get my mailings (which I have not sent out more than a couple of times in a year). I don't spam, I don't send UCE, etc. Who the fuck do they think they are sending me a warning? How do they think that they can impose state US law on a Canadian in Canada? Anyone have a clue what these fuckheads are up to? Alex

2006-03-03, 03:54 PM	#6
Loganp8000 I'm going to the backseat of my car with the woman I love, and I won't be back for TEN MINUTES Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 85	Cant wait US thinks they can police the whole world. Makes me Ill. I would be pissed if I had an opt-in list, lived in Canada, and got that piece of mail. Send them a formal letter back, telling them your 100% legit and to leave you alone or face harrasment charges! ALOHA

2006-03-03, 04:16 PM	#7
MrYum Arghhhh...submit yer sites ya ruddy swabs! Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sunny Florida! Posts: 5,108	Damn, wish I had some good advice for ya Alex That DOES suck wind big time __________________ Porno Flixxx Submissions SOTI Site Submissions Free Porn Resource Submissions

2006-03-04, 01:51 PM	#11
spacemanspiff Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Looz-e-anna Posts: 1,015	Seems to me that if they really wanted to protect those email addresses from UCE they would make their database available for download for free. It wouldn't be that hard to come up with a script to compare the databases. Hell, I think I could do it, and I can't code my way out of a wet paper bag. __________________ Submit your free sites to Free Sex Pics

2006-03-07, 07:08 AM	#15
Dr Bizzaro I'm not interested in the facts, I'm interested in my opinion. Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,620	I got that letter in the mail. I couldnt figure out why the fuck they sent it to me. __________________ -DrBizzaro Make BIG $ selling text links! Sell Links and get $$

2006-03-03, 02:46 PM	#2
glowlite Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ARIZONA - INDIANA Posts: 101	Was it specifially addressed to you and/or your business name?

2006-03-03, 03:11 PM	#3
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	Yes, the envelope was specifically addressed to me / my business name. Alex

2006-03-03, 03:39 PM	#4
glowlite Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ARIZONA - INDIANA Posts: 101	I briefly went through their Protection Registry Act and it reaches back to 2004. It compares somewhat to the Do Not Call list. If the "crime" is commited in Michigan it doesn't matter where you live or where your biz is domiciled. I'd say purge your data base of MI addresses so as to never be bothered with it. Or resend an opt-in to MI addresses if they have any $$$ marketing value.

2006-03-03, 03:52 PM	#5
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	glowlite, there is no easy way to tell what is an MI address. Example, users from MI using AOL, or people who opted in while living in ohio who moved to MI, etc. For these reasons, MI is attempting to regulate international business AT MY EXPENSE (at 7/10 of a cent per address, I would be looking at thousands of dollars to check existing clients, and an ongoing expense moving forward - for clients who have to comfirm opt in to get any mails (which I send VERY rarely if ever). I would have to check all user email addresses from all over the world because there is no simple way to determine if the user CURRENTLY is in MI. It isn't anywhere near as easy as you might think. Alex

2006-03-03, 04:30 PM	#8
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	The contents inside the envelope were not personally addressed (I posted everything that was in the envelope) but it was personally addresses (computer label) on the outside. My feeling is that someone might have used one of my (numerous) domains on a joejob, and rather than doing a little detective work, the minions just mail shit out the door like that. Alex

2006-03-03, 06:56 PM	#9
Maj. Stress Progress rarely comes in buckets, it normally comes in teaspoons Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Dark Side Of Naboo Posts: 1,289	Raw Alex, Letters like that make good trash can filler.

2006-03-04, 10:45 PM	#13
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	It is a money grab alright, because to remain "compliant" you would have to check each and every email address every time you use it to see if the name has been added to the "do not send list". An AOL member could move from one state to another and bang, you could be in violation even through you previously checked. Someone could add their name, and you would not get notification... you would have to query every address again to see if any new ones would get in there. I would be looking at thousands of dollars every time I send a mailing to a complete, double opt-in real confirmed list. It is total bullshit. Alex

2006-03-05, 11:48 PM	#14
MadMax "Without evil there can be no good, so it must be good to be evil sometimes" ~ Satan Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Motor City, baby, where carjacking was invented! Now GIMME THOSE SHOES! Posts: 2,385	Yet another reason I hate our Governor. I hated that bitch when she was a Wayne County prosecutor making shady back-room deals for the city of Detroit, I hated her when she was state attorney general and her husband was getting mega-million dollar no-bid contracts and not delivering on them, and I especially hate her now that she's governor, presiding over one of the worst periods in history for Michigan's economy and just making the situation worse. This is nothing more than yet another money grab from the office of a skank who can't balance a budget and comes up with some of the most assinine plans imaginable to extort money from people. A couple years ago she managed to get records from a bunch of internet cigarette sales companies and sent out tens of millions of dollars in tax bills to unsuspecting taxpayers for "back taxes" on the smokes they'd bought online. People lost their houses over that fiasco. In case I haven't been clear, I FUCKING HATE JENNIFER GRANHOLM AND ANYONE DUMB ENOUGH TO SUPPORT HER, AND I WISH CANADA WOULD REPOSSESS HER SORRY ASS. Alex, can you see if anyone in your government would be interested in forcibly removing her from the Governor's office? She IS Canadian after all. Maybe there's some arcane passage in NAFTA that will help. It would help solve your current problem and one of my long term problems

2006-03-07, 07:15 AM	#16
Wazza I'm a jaded evil bastard, I wouldn't piss on myself if I was on fire... Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 808	I too received one today - which is truly weird because I've never sent one commercial email to anyone. I'd say it's possible that they've run through every adult whois and fired one off to all of us. Or they've cocked up and assumed that I was the one doing the sending when some fuck monkey has used one of my doms as the fake sender of spam emails. But, as Alex says, they can take their fee and cram it fairly and squarely where the sun don't shine... I'm not complying with American laws until you liberate us by bombing us back into the 3rd world... __________________ I sale Internet My sites have no traffic and no PR - let's trade - PM me

2006-03-07, 07:35 AM	#17
Simon That which does not kill us, will try, try again. Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Conch Republic Posts: 5,150	We got one too. Max, I have to agree, your governor is trying her hand at the extortion racket. And doesn't even have the sense to package it in a way that would make her victims willing to pay the tariff. This doesn't give me anywhere near the concerns that Yahoo and AOL moving to charging for delivering email does. We have a double opt-in newsletter list, pretty good size, and those two represent nearly 40% of the addresses on the list. __________________ "If you're happy and you know it, think again." -- Guru Pitka

2006-03-07, 09:25 AM	#18
Toolz If something goes wrong at the plant, blame the guy who can't speak English Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 33	Simon, Would that be a great thing though if Yahoo and AOL paid to charge for delivery? Seems to me this would just be guaranteed delivery and so long as you had a compliant list and were following Can-Spam people would be all for it.

2006-03-07, 10:28 AM	#19
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	Toolz, the problem is cost... Let's say they want 1 cent per email... that is pretty low. Let's say your email click out rate is 1%, which would be pretty high. You have a site that converts 1 in 200 on your mailer traffic. 100* 200 * 0.01 = $200 costs per sale. In order to get that down to "break even" for most operators, the cost from aol would have to be in the range of 1/10 of a cent per mail - otherwise the cost price of doing business would make it impossible. Alex

2006-03-07, 10:34 AM	#20
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	Let me add to this for a minute... let's say each state has a do-not-send list that must be consulted before every mailing. Let's say that the US feds also have a list. Combined it costs 3 cents per mailing to check addresses in all these different places to make sure that nobody has added themselves onto the list since you last mailed. Now you are sitting at 4 cents per mail, of a whopping $800 cost per sale. "do not spam" lists are the zoning laws of the internet. They attempt to limit free speech not by banning the speech, but instead by making it almost impossible to comply with non-related regulations. Even if it adds only 1 cent to your mailing (2 cents total) you are looking at a net cost of $400 per sale. Nobody but nobody will mail completely legally and make money. Alex