I've Pulled Hardlink Trades - You May Want To Read This

[Bill]

Originally Posted by jennym

Do you not believe that is indicative of a "problem" in Google's eyes??

Nobody is quite sure what it means, as far as I've been able to determine.

Other than that it started occuring about 16 months ago, and tends to bobble, that is, it comes and goes.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument that it represents a penalty.

The bobble implies that it's a toolbar artifact.

I have many interior pages on my domains that were zeroed out as part of this zeroing trend - including a large number of linked freesites. But in this latest tbpr update about half of them came back, many with higher pr than before. And I had done nothing to improve their linking.

The same with category pages in my private linklists -odd patterns of pages losing pr, then getting it back.

To make it personal to you, let me ask you, when your domains get hit with this strange tbpr bobbling, or maybe some other google phenomenon that we haven't seen yet, you're saying it's perfectly fine with you if all your link partners drop their links to you?

You are reacting to this as if it were a penalty when there is no good evidence that it's a penalty.

What it is evidence of, is that we are dealing with a NEW google. We need to study what it's rewarding and build and link with it's new preferences in mind.

To do that, we need to cooperate. Build value for our surfers, work together to recreate our linking patterns, test new ideas, share knowledge, and trust each other to honor the linking deals we've made.

Why do we need trust? Because it's clear that one-way links are what google rewards now. You can't do one-way linking in business if you don't trust that the people you give links to aren't going to secretly drop their links to you to vampirize your relevance.

[jennym]

Originally Posted by Bill

Nobody is quite sure what it means, as far as I've been able to determine.

Other than that it started occuring about 16 months ago, and tends to bobble, that is, it comes and goes.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument that it represents a penalty.

The bobble implies that it's a toolbar artifact.

I have many interior pages on my domains that were zeroed out as part of this zeroing trend - including a large number of linked freesites. But in this latest tbpr update about half of them came back, many with higher pr than before. And I had done nothing to improve their linking.

The same with category pages in my private linklists -odd patterns of pages losing pr, then getting it back.

To make it personal to you, let me ask you, when your domains get hit with this strange tbpr bobbling, or maybe some other google phenomenon that we haven't seen yet, you're saying it's perfectly fine with you if all your link partners drop their links to you?

You are reacting to this as if it were a penalty when there is no good evidence that it's a penalty.

What it is evidence of, is that we are dealing with a NEW google. We need to study what it's rewarding and build and link with it's new preferences in mind.

To do that, we need to cooperate. Build value for our surfers, work together to recreate our linking patterns, test new ideas, share knowledge, and trust each other to honor the linking deals we've made.

Why do we need trust? Because it's clear that one-way links are what google rewards now. You can't do one-way linking in business if you don't trust that the people you give links to aren't going to secretly drop their links to you to vampirize your relevance.

Hi Bill...I appreciate you at least giving your opinions.

First - I think I am far from having knee jerk reactions. I started the other thread over 2 months ago, have joined this discussion, and have not yet removed links.

Second - I had a discussion at length with someone on ICQ last night about figuring out how to make Google happy. It still involved linking with people, but in different ways. I am not just abandoning all my link trades. BTW, I had that (and other) conversations on ICQ because people wanted a calm conversation with me instead of entering into this pissing contest. They contacted me.

Third - I think if there is a problem with my site, and people drop it until that problem is fixed because they believe it harms them, then that would be a wise business decision.

I have never lost PR on any of my internal pages, so I am very unfamiliar with what you are describing. That is why I started the original thread, and joined this one. I am always eager and willing to learn.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by jennym

I have never lost PR on any of my internal pages, so I am very unfamiliar with what you are describing. That is why I started the original thread, and joined this one. I am always eager and willing to learn.

Well, when i first noticed this occuring months ago I surfed thru my trades and studied how it affected the se networks of a bunch of my trading partners.

That takes me into the network of sites of about a dozen of the biggest se builders here, including dean & jeff (and their network may include your se domains, if you have many domains beyond your primary ll), linkster, jay, gg & mml, and others.

I saw interior pages that I beleived had pr zeroed out everywhere I went. Their was no-one who was immune to it.

(I can't always be sure that interior zeros had been hit by this, that is, they might have been zeros before, but I have surfed all these folks sites multiple times over the years, I'm quite sure that I saw plenty of "main" pages off the index zeroed, plus all or most of the minor pages. on domain after domain.)

Plus, of course, the small linklists and subsidiary sites of all the small linklist owners here, almost all or many of whom have had the interior zeros at some point, as has been discussed here a fair number of times in the past 16 months.

So, if you haven't seen it, I don't know what to tell you. Go over your domains and friend's domains and look for it. It's happening as we speak.

---

I gather you feel that your linklist offers such unique value to the surfers that you can afford to say "fuck you" to other webmasters, and you don't think you will gain the rep of a linkdropper from this. That's your position, that's your right.

My position is that this is a dangerous road, and, to boot, it's not a solution to this problem.

I'm not a linklist owner. If you guys want to start a linkdropping war it's not that big a deal to me.

I am a linker, and for as long as I've been a linker, the general opinion has been that linkdropping is something only cheaters do.

[jennym]

Originally Posted by Bill

I gather you feel that your linklist offers such unique value to the surfers that you can afford to say "fuck you" to other webmasters, and you don't think you will gain the rep of a linkdropper from this. That's your position, that's your right.

My position is that this is a dangerous road, and, to boot, it's not a solution to this problem.

I'm not a linklist owner. If you guys want to start a linkdropping war it's not that big a deal to me.

I am a linker, and for as long as I've been a linker, the general opinion has been that linkdropping is something only cheaters do.

Did you not read the multiple times I have said I haven't pulled any links over this? So if I no longer want to trade, and I email someone and inform them I no longer want to trade, then I am a cheater? That's a bit dramatic don't you think? I don't think my LL is special at all....that's the problem.

I believe I have always been very polite to people who have come at me politely. I really try not to get involved in drama and pissing. I just asked for opinions. I don't ever like to make enemies. That being said, at the end of the day, I am here to make money. I have children to feed and clothe and put through college. I really can't worry about hurt feelings. And, I think it is childish to have hurt feelings over a business discussion anyway.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by jennym

Did you not read the multiple times I have said I haven't pulled any links over this? So if I no longer want to trade, and I email someone and inform them I no longer want to trade, then I am a cheater? That's a bit dramatic don't you think?

Ahhhhhh, my sincere apologies if I misunderstood. I must have misremembered you as saying that you had dropped links. It must have been someone else. I stand corrected, and doubly apologize.

I was mixing up my general concerns about the trust required for linking, and your specific case.

I just want to speak strongly about the importance of linking agreements, and I was concerned that your talk and examples were going to start a panic about linking, about who's cool and who's not, and get people started on a cycle of punitive and quiet linkdropping.

[jennym]

Originally Posted by Preacher

The few responses I have received from my notices have been positive ones because the webmasters know that they had closed submits or stopped updating and totally understood where I was coming from and I thank them all for that.

Glad to hear they understood

Originally Posted by Preacher

And I gave something to talk about on Tuesday night so you should all be thanking me or all we'd hear about is hi-def programming and hockey results!

Originally Posted by Bill

Ahhhhhh, my sincere apologies if I misunderstood. I must have misremembered you as saying that you had dropped links. It must have been someone else. I stand corrected, and doubly apologize.

I was mixing up my general concerns about the trust required for linking, and your specific case.

I just want to speak strongly about the importance of linking agreements, and I was concerned that your talk and examples were going to start a panic about linking, about who's cool and who's not, and get people started on a cycle of punitive and quiet linkdropping.

No worries, just want people to understand that. I have only dropped about 6 or 7 links in about 8 years I think, and none of them had anything to do with this. I will re-evaluate everything in the next week or so and decide what to do then. Rest assured, if I intend to drop any links, I will make every effort to contact the other party.

[plateman]

jennym we have a index trade and thats good

me and captainJ had index and category and I got pissed off that he dropped my cat links without even a message, so thats ok

and if he would of said "man I think your no PR condition is affecting my ranking - I would of happily said take the links down and see what happens, and thats it....no hard feelings...we still have a index trade

and these trades are years old he atleast could have asked what happened to my pages and I could have told him I added 15 category pages all at once and my other pages didnt carry over any PR juice or I think its a toolbar error... or the same thing thats happening to 1000s of other legit webmasters

and I had category PR for years


me and spaceman have index and category on one of his LL - thats ok


and what bill was saying about his pages and free sites are doing the same thing as mine

the people were gonna partner with in link trades should get togther and work out a new scheme that google likes...

but pulling peoples links behind there back is plain wrong


and I dont no why you two insulted DD?

[jennym]

Originally Posted by plateman

jennym we have a index trade and thats good

me and captainJ had index and category and I got pissed off that he dropped my cat links without even a message, so thats ok


and these trades are years old he atleast could have asked what happened to my pages and I could have told him I added 15 category pages all at once and my other pages didnt carry over any PR juice or I think its a toolbar error... or the same thing thats happening to 1000s of other legit webmasters

and I had category PR for years


me and spaceman have index and category on one of his LL - thats ok
and if he would of said "man I think your no PR condition is affecting my ranking - I would of happily said take the links down and see what happens, and thats it....no hard feelings...we still have a index trade


and what bill was saying about his pages and free sites are doing the same thing as mine

the people were gonna partner with in link trades should get togther and work out a new scheme that google likes...

but pulling peoples links behind there back is plain wrong


and I dont no why you two insulted DD?

I have noticed people losing PR. That seemed like a "penalty" to me. I just wanted to discuss what other people thought. The only time I have pulled links and didn't inform someone is if they had already voided the trade (by removing the pages we were trading with) or if they were installing crap. That has only been a few sites in the 8 years the site has been up. I would love to get together with people and work out a new linking deal. I am in the middle of re-vamping all of my pages, but anyone who is interested in this should ICQ/email/PM me after next week. Having said that, I still believe that some of my trades are worthless/harmful and I will be checking them all next week.

As for DD, that is twice that I have seen in the last week he has jumped in a thread, not to have an adult conversation, but to degrade the person asking questions. The other thread is here
Of course, he has pretty much always been like that, and I can't fucking stand him. It might be petty of me, but that is how I feel.

This board is supposed to be a community where people can talk about various ideas, thoughts, and opinions. Instead, it has pretty much turned into a high school clique board where many people are afraid to post their honest thoughts and opinions for fear of being attacked. But, I digress.....