Link Lists - Sucking Suckers?

[hazel]

Okay Everyone, grab a beer and settle down in your fave comfy chair. This is going to be a long moan

Ten years ago there might have been about 1000 adult WMs. Everyone knew [or knew abot] everyone. Today there appear to be millions of the little f'ers. They're everywhere. They produce freebie sites and galleries by the truck-load

Why can't many Link List owners cope, and TGP owners can? It beats the 'Donald Duck' out of me

The main reason I ask is because there seems to be a growing culture amongst LLs to include a piece of text on their submit/rools pages which states something to the effect of "no emails are sent to sites which are declined/not accepted". Some are well known and [maybe once] revered. Hey! That's fine. They're busy - Right?

Well. With the exception of the few [like Richard's or Tommy's - maybe PK too] there aren't too many sites that get more than 150-200 submits per day. And there are fewer who list more than perhaps 50 'free sites', or sites plus galleries on any given day [otherwise they'd all have a gazillion links since 1994]

At the same time places like The Hun, World Sex, and other bigger TGPs routinely sift through 1000, 1200 or more galleries each day; only including between 50 and 150 of those offerings. The difference seems to be that the TGP sites will almost always mail you as to why you didn't make it, whereas the LLs don't even bother their bahukies. Why?

Is it because if they don't respond you may think that they are behind with their reviews? Some sites may be a whole month behind [like Richard's just now]. It happens. But not may sites let you know they are 'lagging' behind in dealing with your request

If they don't want to list your site and don't respond, perhaps you'll think that they ARE behind. Then you'll forget all about their recip link, and not remove it. Meanwhile they still get a small trickle of traffic from the links of a 100, 200, 500 rejected sites. Then, of course, there's the extra search engine ranking, which equals traffic from being listed on the same page as Richard or Tommy

You mail them after a fortnight. No response. You email again. Just the same. You take down the link, and you get blacklisted for taking down the link. Wait a minute! That site wasn't listed!? It hasn't happened to me - YET! - but I know two people who it has happened to

What has happened to me is that by submitting my effort to around thirty sites, I never know if it has been accepted by more than maybe eight or ten LLs. When you throw four or five sites in each week, how the f**k are you supposed to keep track? Are these people still accepting sites, or just listing their own stuff? They seem to be awake, but when you call there's nobody home

Wet Place [bless him/her/them] may take a week to review, and then do all your sites at once. That's cool. There's even the odd email saying 'You missed this' or 'No alt tag on recip'. That's good too. We all get it wrong from time to time, and they 'advise' you of the fact. Kinda personal touch

I still do everything 'by hand' because I don't have more than about 10-12 subs a day, but I respond to them all and give them personal attention and chatter. TGPs that get hundreds of subs can do it too. Why not some LLs?

It must seem so much more attractive to many newer WMs that TGP, even though it's so much poorer in converting, is a better way of controlling submission strategies than LLs

Is there an answer to all this? I could slim my fave subs list down to a very few 'trusted' sites that I know will communicate. But will they grow so big that they too get 'f-u' fever? It doesn't matter how much traffic you could swing their way, if you can't be arsed to talk to people they can't be arsed to put your link up

What experiences have you had with this?

[Ramster]

I can see your frustration.

But I have to disagree with you.

TGPs are not better at sending out emails than link lists are. I have been submitting to tgps daily for at least a year and every month or so I need to "modify" my submit list because there are always some not listing me.

And even the ones that do list me do not everytime. I could give you plenty of examples and none of them send emails saying I was rejected. That's life and that's fine with me. Do I like it? NO! But it's a business and it is fair for these TGP owners to list various people all the time based on content ect.

Link lists that do not send out emails? It sucks but they have their reasons. The most being replys complaining about the rejection. I get them myself with only 50 submits a day.

TGPs do Not sift thru ALL 2000 submits daily. Some do, Yes. But most get what they want and simply can the rest without ever seeing them.

As I said I see your frustration but it is not fair to say link lists are lazier or inconsiderate compared to TGPs because it is simply not true.

[SI]

Originally posted by Ramster

Link lists that do not send out emails? It sucks but they have their reasons.

The main reason is their wishes to get more and more backlinks from free sites, but never list that freesites. I think it some kind of cheat. And i know another one - ban without notification.

Respect to all owners who send out rejection mails.

[Greenguy]

I assume that neither of you have ever run a Link List.

Please don't throw stones unless you've walked in our shoes

[stablehand]

Originally posted by Greenguy
I assume that neither of you have ever run a Link List.

Please don't throw stones unless you've walked in our shoes

I don't wanna throw stones anywhere, nor have I walked in your shoes, and can barely begin to grasp the work and hassle with running a linklist, and I don't want to compare apples with trucks, just wanna say I appreciate getting notified. Not because i would necesarilly start pulling down recips, mostly cuz it sorta makes sense - i make a proposition of a biz deal by submitting and it's kinda cool to know wether we have a deal or not, also I dig communication. Some other reasons too. I guess an automated response wouldn't be too difficult, but if ya get a lota bitchen about it, i can see why you don't wanna do. Tho, the bitchen part is odd as you can come here to get an explanation or pointer of what's wrong. But if you don't know it, kinda silly to ask here.

That's all

[Cleo]

I got sick of the same sites being resubmitted with the exact same issues 15 minutes after I sent out decline e-mails.

I would empty out my admin and then within an hour it would be full again with a lot of the sites that I had just declined.

[Linkster]

I have as a practice been sending out emails when I decline someone for something other than not following the rules - and usually give suggestions of how to fix the problem.
However - in the past I used to send out decline emails - and got 95% of them back bounced because the submitters were using fake email addies with their autosubmitters.

The difference with the TGPs is twofold - first - they have many more reviewers and their scripts are written to auto-send rejection emails in the case where they dont do an auto check of the email addie during the submit process - the second is that the rest use the auto email check and confirmation process during the submit which weeds out the problem of the fake addies.
Linklists at one time were talking about going to the email confirmation process, and the feedback we got from submitters was that was too much of a tradeoff for not getting rejection emails - especially since anyone on a normal reliable host can check their stats for that submitted domain pretty easily to see if they got listed.
The amount of submitters that said they did not want the email confirmation process was so much that at least in my case, I chose to not send rejections for the everyday "Not reading the rules" people but to give responses here and if it was someone on my trusted WM submitter list, I email or PM them privately.

[troy]

Hello all,

I am making freesites for 3 years now and stopped submitting to a lot of LL's because they only list my sites once in every 10 submissions.

I tried every possible thing what could have caused the decline but it doesn't matter what I do the score stays the same.

I can only think of one explanation
They only take a given amount of freesites for a catagory a day.

Could this be true?

[Ramster]

Originally posted by Cleo
I got sick of the same sites being resubmitted with the exact same issues 15 minutes after I sent out decline e-mails.

I would empty out my admin and then within an hour it would be full again with a lot of the sites that I had just declined.

That is so true. I have a few guys that keep submitting mature vs boy which my rules say I do not list. I send out rejection emails to everyone ut they obviously don't read them so after 5-10 of those sites I banned those people without them knowing. I don't get their submits anymore and their autosubmitting brians probably have no idea.

[swedguy]

Don't forget about the "friendly" replies:

Me: "Read rule #xx - site doesn't fit 800x600"

Submitter: "I made site for you. took long time. ALL big boys listed it and you reject? NOW LIST IT"

... and the like.

I still send out accept/reject emails though and I don't plan on stopping with it.

[amadman]

When I first started I was doing everything by hand and even sent out emails of submit status. Soon %50 of sumissions were being rejected because simple rules were not being followed. Add that to all the other problems mentioned above and it really is not worth it. So I quit.


So now I put the resonability on the submiter to make sure their sites fit the rules and are getting listed. And if they are not getting listed then I suggest that they should first reread the rules then either contact the list owner or stop submitting.

[Cleo]

Originally posted by troy
I can only think of one explanation
They only take a given amount of freesites for a catagory a day.

Only in that I'm more picky in categories that I get way too many submits to.

Here are my numbers from today.
amateurs (918)
anal (260)
anime_toons (128)
asian_girls (335)
babes_models (477)
bbw (412)
bdsm (292)
big_boobs (508)
cam_girls (50)
ebony (342)
fetish (653)
for_women_only (137)
gay_men (375)
group_gangbang (211)
hardcore (804)
indian (57)
interracial (223)
just_plain_nasty (391)
latina (274)
lesbian (1052)
mature (782)
milfs_wives (322)
miscellaneous (210)
oral (218)
pornstars (182)
reality (138)
sexy_wear (466)
shemales (392)
teen (1204)
voyeur (244)

[troy]

Hi Cleo,

Thanks for that list very interesting

Are that the submissions for only today?

That are a awful lot of submissions, I had no idea.

[SI]

Originally posted by troy
Hi Cleo,
Are that the submissions for only today?

Are you kiddin'?

[Cleo]

That is not today's submits. It is the total amounts of listings that I have.

After I look at the 30th or so lesbian submit each day I do get pretty picky about taking anymore. Same for amateur, mature, teen, etc.

[docholly]

Build>>>submit>>>forget>>repeat.

analyse after 3 months to determine who is spending too much time on the GG&J board and not enough on SEOing their LL to send more traffic.

Build>>>submit>>>forget>>repeat.

|rasta|

Note to self/tart: build more indian cam sites

[troy]

Are you kiddin'?

I was confused by
Here are my numbers from today
|doh|

But I really don't have a clou how many submits the big LL's get.

[Cleo]

I have a small TGP that is mostly SE traffic so it doesn't send a lot of traffic. I get over 500 submits a day to it. Right now it has a backlog of 13,000+ submits. WTF!

[MadMax]

My LL isn't huge yet, and my script automatically sends out rejection emails. I'm not getting hundreds of submits per day yet, so I have time to type in a reason that the site was declined. In every decline email I send out, I offer another review if the submitter fixes the problem and responds to the decline email within 7 days. Most of my declines are because of thumbs not appearing, clear rule violations (my rules are less restrictive than many) and the like.

You know what? I get maybe 1 out of 10 webmasters who ever bother to fix the problem and respond. Even when the problems are clearly just bad coding or bad links. Those who do are usually my regular submitters, who are appreciative of the "heads up" on the site's problem and I usually hear back from them within 24 hours. These are by default the serious webmasters.

Now, I make mistakes with my freesites just like everyone else does on occasion. The last couple weeks I seem to have been a bit cursed. Most of the LL owners who posted in this thread caught the problems and sent me decline emails. I fixed the issues and then my sites were accepted. I know that this is in part because they know me from this board, and knowing someone (even casually on a message board) does have its advantages.

I'd love it if everyone's LL script automatically sent out decline emails and if everyone had the time to specify the reason for the decline. The fact is that just isn't the case...but I know that if there's a fundamental problem I will find out about it because *someone* will send me a decline email, then I can red flag that site to re-check with the other LLs I submitted to. Is it a pain? Sure...but when I get declined it's almost without fail because I made a mistake or inadvertently broke a rule...so who am I to cry about it?

Running a LL takes more time and effort than I ever would have imagined before I started my own. It can be very rewarding, and I'm lucky enough to have a solid base of good submitters (many of whom are also LL owners who post here). I do the best that I can with the time that I have and try to be fair with everyone...and I honestly believe that just about every LL owner who posts here does the same.

[GeorgeTH]

As most of you know I have done only a few free sites so far, and I was actually pleased to get these few listed at well over half the sites I submitted to - THANKS , Guys!
It might have been a little more or less - I'm just to busy (or lazy??) to keep track of things like that!
I was also pleased, particularly with my first 2 submits, that I actually received a few emails saying something like "rejected, but close enough for an email" - and in most cases I either didn't read the small print or was confused by the dozens of recip-link options/categories and picked the wrong one...

Pulling recip links: I never ever do that! It's not really my gallery loosing the traffic, it might be one of the sites with their recip link next to the in-active one. Why should I bother and get blacklisted for a few stray hits?

TGP rejection emails: I do TGP submissions for years, and if I wouldn't keep an eye on my referrer stats I'd never had an idea who lists or rejects me! Dream on about rejection emails from TGPs!! Maybe 5% of them send them out...

It's even that bad that recently I had to take sites of my submit list because the bastards had left their submission page opened despite the fact they weren't taking any submissions anymore (only listing sponsor galleries) - now that's showing real consideration to the poor hand-submitter like me - grrrr
|raygun|

Conclusion: yes - in a perfect world it would be nice to receive a rejection email and get an idea why your gallery/site wasn't listed, but unfortunately today's reviewers/webmasters don't have the time or inclination anymore!
And most software doesn't really cater for it either...

[Ramster]

You'd be surprised how many TGPs leave their submit page open but NEVER look at those submits. It's amazing.

[koolkat]

Granted my LL isn't as huge as some of the others out there, but I very easily can see how difficult it would be to send a customized email for every single site submitted. I send out a generalized email when I reject a site. Typically 90% of the rejections on my site are failure to follow the rule, so I just refer them back to the rules, and then suggest they resubmit after fixing, or otherwise as here for specific reasons.
I have a life outside my sites as well, so I like to spend as much time as possible with it, not telling someone how they didn't follow the rules properly.
And when I was doing my TGP site, I didn't send rejection letters either. With over 30,000 sites backlogged, it would have been too much!

[ChristyB]

For two years I emailed EVERY rejection with a personalised reason; but I get dozens of submissions per day from these same people with the same errors and I still have to check them to see if they've stopped the prolem...

So I have two choices - either I blacklist them (then I never see their submissions again and they never get the opportunity to fix the problem) - or I stop mailing (cos it takes forever)!

So I no longer email for a blatant rule breach - unless it looks like it could be an error...

Although - some days (like today) I email them all and patiently explain what's wrong with their sites - I guarantee I'll have 2 hate mails tomorrow and virtually none of them will stop making the same errors...

Also - a gallery is a gallery - lol - it's REAL EASY to review compared to a free site - and it is possibleto get a script to check the whole gallery and accept/decline (with auto message) - leaving the owner to simply sift through the remaining good galleries and pick the first 50/100 he likes for todays additions...

A free site is a whole 'nuther ball game.

Get used to reading link list rules - REGULARLY

And - docholly was dead right

[Greenguy]

Here's the thing (and I am assuming that part of this post is directed at me) I haven't sent out rejection emails since I've been posting on a board. I got tired of it for many of the reasons that have already been posted & then some.

Once I had a regular posting place (Condom, BTW) I simply told people that didn't get listed to stop by the board & ask. My thinking on this has always been that if you do it in public on a board, it might help someone else with the same problem.

I have been thinking of turning on the automated rejection email thing, but I'm not there yet

[RawAlex]

Here is my take on rejection emails, and such:

Send a rejection notice, 50% of the time you get an email back saying "but my site is fine" or "other people listed it" or "your rules are too tough". I don't have enough time in a day to get into a huge debate with each submitter who's site I reject. Imagine that I reject 50 sites per day. that is 25 more emails, 25 more replies, 25 replies to that, etc. (and I won't mention the volumes of bounced mails I got when I did send decline notices)

What is most frustrating is, in the end, most of those guys (and gals) who debate like crazy in email WON'T CHANGE THEIR SITE TO MATCH THE RULES ANYWAY, so it is a 100% waste of time.

I am like Cleo. If I get too many in the same cat, or too many of the same site, or too much similar stuff, I start rejecting sites that pass the rules but just aren't what I am looking for.

I get more than enough submissions that I list right now, I don't have to do anything to IMPROVE that number, I would just be rejecting more people.

A TGP side note: I have seen a few people on other boards selling TGPs and such that they run. They are using standard TGP scripts, etc. Many of them, when you look at the stats, are getting anywhere from 3 to 100 times more traffic to their submit pages than to their front pages.

What a waste!

Alex