Link Lists - Sucking Suckers?

[Ann Omness]

I send some rejection emails each day, but the majority of the sites I reject don't get an email. They've been emailed before and they just keep submitting the same stuff with the same problems. I'm not going to write them a little note every day. They obviously don't care. I also don't send notes to people who violate multiple listing rules. If they aren't willing to take the time to read the rules, I'm not willing to take the time to write to them.

I'll write if there is an easy-to-fix problem like no recip, bad links, broken content, a popup, things like that. But if the site makes it clear that they just don't care who lists them and who doesn't, I'm not wasting my time on them. I have a list of 25 domains that I routinely reject without looking at them because they routinely submit crap. On a slow day, I'll review them, just to remind myself why I don't list them. Once in a while, I find something worth listing in those, but not often.

[Mishi]

My link list script gives submitters an option to receive approve/decline notices. I'd say better than half the submitters who regularly break the rules have opted out of receiving notice. They are the ones most likely to get banned "without notice."

Those who do receive decline messages often message back with responses that either show they clearly don't understand the rules, or - and this one always blows me away - that specifically state that they've "gotten away" with something before, and don't understand why they didn't this time. Clue phone, line one!

I still send decline messages in hopes that those who receive them will learn; but ultimately, my good submitters would probably get hand-written messages anyway if something was an obvious mistake (404s or whatever). Decline messages are purely a courtesy, and one that is not appreciated the way it should be. I'm still growing, so I can't be as picky as some, but I understand completely why most of the big guys don't even bother.

[Mishi]

Originally posted by SI
The main reason is their wishes to get more and more backlinks from free sites, but never list that freesites. I think it some kind of cheat.

With all due respect, this is complete and utter bullshit.

[troy]

I have a question some time now.

The replies in this thread al speak of submitters who constantly break the rules but there is also a group who are trusted submitters and really want to follow the rules.

Do link list owners have a list of trusted submitters?

People who always make sites according the rules but sometimes make a mistake.

And if so do you write them a rejection email so they can change their site?

[Tart]

Originally posted by troy

Do link list owners have a list of trusted submitters?


And if so do you write them a rejection email so they can change their site?

Yes and Yes

[Sean416]

Originally posted by Mishi
Clue phone, line one!

[bert2000pt]

My 2 cents to this discussion.

Being new to the free sites "game", I read all LLs rules and, in a first stage, I tried to make different sites matching different rules. Naturally, this was really a pain !

Second stage, use the standard basic rules for all sites and LLs:
- warning page, tour page, 2 galleries
- 3 links per page
- no new windows
- no consoles
- no fpa

Even so, I got sites accepted in some LLs and not in others.

Some sent rejection mails, some didn't, some I asked in this board and got some interesting answers as, for instance, sites rejected because I'm using same template.

Reading through this thread I have to wonder:
If LLs get so many submits each day from different webmasters WTF does it matter if I'm using the same layout?
I'm sure other webmasters will provide the variety LLs require.

Another interesting reason for rejection was that I had my galleries thumbs surrounding the sponsor's banner.
Come on, people, I'm not building free sites to make you happy, I'm doing it to make MONEY.

Anyway, back to main point.
Why can't you LLs guys use THE SAME submission rules? I'm sure it won't be hard to reach a standard basic set of rules that everybody can use.

Furthermore, why not use the same "trusted submitter" thing as TGPs do? It would be much easier to check the sites and send mails if some don't follow the rules.
ie, Cleo was kind enough to point me to a site were I had forgotten to check a 2257 link opening in a new window. I corrected the error and site was accepted right away.
(Thanks Cleo).
Naturally, you would need an option to let new webmasters apply to "trusted" status.

I try to work clean and have "partner codes" to many TGPs I submit to, within my niche. I do the same with my free sites so I'm sure I wouldn't have any problems getting "trusted".

Bottom line, we all want to make $$$ so let's work together and get rich

Bert

[Porn Princess]

I can see why each LL has its own set of rules. I don't actually see a whole lot of variations in those rules from one to another. But it makes sense that part of the reason for the rules is to have control of the flow of the LL, whether there is a certain quality standard you want, or a particular consistancy you want your surfers to know they will always find in sites listed on your LL, or whatever other reason. It's the owner of each LL's perogative as owners to establish. I try to make a note to myself as I read these rules if I see one that doesn't seem to be a 'standard' rule. Off the top of my head, I really can't think of any that I have actually seen though.

Along the same line of thought, as a submit I have the right to chose to not submit to a LL that may have rule that I prefer to not build my sites to conform with. To me, its just that simple.

If I hated to wear shoes in public, I'd be sure to steer clear of establishments that insisted I wear shoes. Their rules, but I don't have to participate. If I was in majority on barefoot-advocacy and the general population began to refuse to frequent the one place that had an anti-free-foot rule, they'd have to re-evaluate that rule in order to not risk loosing business.

I think this provides a balance of making sure that there are standards without attempts to impose impossible rules.


As for rejection emails...I certainly would never expect one, but I really really appreciate the ones I have gotten. They usually come the morning after an attempt to submit a site way past my bedtime. These rejection emails alert me to stupid errors on my part so that I can correct them pronto. They don't all give a reason, but I especially appreciate when they do. I've even had an owner/reviewer send a really nice email when a site submitted months prior was discovered to have one bad thumb link. That one really went out of their way to help me out! They now have an eternally grateful newbie.

[spacemanspiff]

I'd really like to turn my email function back on, but it just got to be way to time consuming dealing with all the responses to the rejection emails.

My rejection email used to give a half-dozen reasons why a site could have been rejected, plus a link to my rules page (I'm up to a staggering 11 rules), and another link to a webmaster update page that contained a bunch of ramblings about what I'm doing with my site. I still got too many "what's wrong with my site" replies to rejection emails.

I've never failed to respond to an email asking about a site, or a submitter in general. I've even had a few PM's over here asking about sites. By not sending a rejection email, it put's the onus on the submitter. It takes just a few seconds to respond to an rejection email, but it's more time consuming to initiate the email to me asking about a site, so if you're doing that then maybe you're a little more serious about this business.

Having said all that, I'm toying with the idea of turning the acceptance email thingy back on.

[Tart]

Originally posted by spacemanspiff
I'd really like to turn my email function back on, but it just got to be way to time consuming dealing with all the responses to the rejection emails.

..............

Having said all that, I'm toying with the idea of turning the acceptance email thingy back on.

I just turned mine back on.. I put in the reject note that replying to it goes to an email that will not be read and to contact me through the boards I frequent (with links to them on the rule page) if they have a question. The same info is repeated on my rules page.

We'll see how it goes

[spacemanspiff]

Originally posted by Tart
I just turned mine back on.. I put in the reject note that replying to it goes to an email that will not be read and to contact me through the boards I frequent (with links to them on the rule page) if they have a question. The same info is repeated on my rules page.

We'll see how it goes

Good idea. Might have to try that.

[wesley]

When I started a LL I sent out reject emails, but after several nasty replies back for my time to point out why they hadn't been listed I stopped for any obvious rule breaking. 9 out of 10 are bad recip. although I remind them at the start of the submit form.

I have sent out emails to some, even 3 times to one well known LL owner who comes here. Even that LL owner still submits with an obvious mistake.

On the flip side when I submit and get a reject and can't find any rule broken and try to follow up why, I rarely get a response any ways. I have however had sites accepted up to 9 months after being submitted.

[GeorgeTH]

Originally posted by Tart
I put in the reject note that replying to it goes to an email that will not be read and to contact me through the boards I frequent (with links to them on the rule page) if they have a question.

I do the same on my TGPs: the email is only there for script use, my other email is at my main domain, so people who don't even read the email properly and just click 'reply' are sending all their complains to 'never-never-land' LOL

[caringneo]

Originally posted by Cleo
I have a small TGP that is mostly SE traffic so it doesn't send a lot of traffic. I get over 500 submits a day to it. Right now it has a backlog of 13,000+ submits. WTF!

Cleo,
I have seen your TGP on the date base of a popular TGP submitter. That could be the reason you are getting so many submissions. You might want to send email to the "TGP Software" guys to exclude your site from their data base if you want to get less submits.

Neo

[caringneo]

I know it takes lot of time and energy to run a Link List and it is not easy to deal with those replies you get from a rejected free site submitter.
But it would be really nice if you could send a rjection email for reasons other than breaking your rules.
For example I once got an email from Cleo saying one of my banners is not showing up due to wrong img src code. I fixed it immediately and got listed all the places. Had she/reviewer not sent that email, I might have got rejected from all the link lists and never knew about it.
Smilarly I got a rejection mail from Ramstar about a Bi-sexual site saying he doesn't list gay sites. Nice! It helps me not to repeat that mistake again.

Also it would be nice if you let the submitter know if you are black listing.
I once got banned from one of the BIG link list by "accident". I was lucky that I was on the reviwer's ICQ list and he is a great webmaster. Guess what? Now I am using his Friends page to submit and evry single site I make get listed.

I know a time will come where you can fill the link list with sponsor hosted sites and your own sites and may few other link list owners' sites. But it would be really nice if you could consider us, honest webmasters who give our time, content, bandwidth and effort to make your site better, hoping that we can get some sales in return.

So it would be great, if you can send us rejection emails for resaons other than breaking the rules.

Neo

[troy]

Great idea Spacemanspiff and Tart

[spacemanspiff]

OK, here's what I decided to do. I enabled the email function on my scripts. You'll get an email when your site is added, and you may or may not get one if it's rejected. I have the option of sending an email at the time of review.

If I rejected your site for a simple, honest mistake, I'll let you know. At that time you can fix the problem and reply to the rejection email letting me know it's fixed. I'll add your site to the next day's update. That way you don't have to wait forever and a day for you site to some back up for review.

If you are a "Sucking Sucker" (to borrow a phrase ), you probably won't get an email. These folks include auto submitters, template whores, clueless site builders, and my nextdoor neighbor, who is a bitch, but that's another story.

[Fonz]

Originally posted by spacemanspiff
If I rejected your site for a simple, honest mistake, I'll let you know. At that time you can fix the problem and reply to the rejection email letting me know it's fixed. I'll add your site to the next day's update. That way you don't have to wait forever and a day for you site to some back up for review.

If you are a "Sucking Sucker" (to borrow a phrase ), you probably won't get an email. These folks include auto submitters, template whores, clueless site builders, and my nextdoor neighbor, who is a bitch, but that's another story.

Same thing here again except for that next door neighbor

People who make honest mistakes should know what they are doing wrong. Shitheads that don't even bother to read the rejection emails and submit the same shit over and over again are just being ignored

[hazel]

Oops! Did I stir up a hornets nest? Good! If it's got you guys talking then I'm well pleased

Most people understand how difficult and frustrating it can be, for LL-masters AND site builders, but if we can all come to an understanding we might get somewhere. There are so many people jumping on the bandwagon, in search of easy riches, that those who DO try hard to get it right need to get together

Almost all the replies posted here seem to reflect the 'Great Divide' between owners and submitters. Seems it all stems from the fact that it's time consuming dealing with the average career f**k-wit who can't/won't read rules or guidelines. Fair enough. Blacklist 'em. But what about the newbie who is making the effort, and a few genuine mistakes? Okay, time is money. But so is lack of understanding between the two sides

There are good, bad and indifferent on both sides of the fence. LL-masters should praise the good, weed out the bad, and help those who try but make mistakes. At the same time builders who are really trying hard to make a go of it should realise that any-old-crap doesn't make the grade anymore. If we lose the bad, who shouldn't be in the business in the first place, it makes all our 'jobs' a lot easier in the long run

Love the idea of a list of 'Trusted' submitters. Heaven knows there are plenty of shared blacklists out there. Also have to agree with GG that airing rejection grievences on the board helps others too. Makes sense and saves time

Meanwhile I plan always to give a courteous response

[MadMax]

I've got a note on my submit page in pretty big type, just above where the submit form starts, saying I'm happy to answer any questions from newbies trying to get their bearings. It's been up for 3 months and over a couple thousand submissions. Guess how many emails I've gotten asking questions.....go ahead, guess....


0




One of my submitters who frequents this board had 3 submissions sitting in my que 404ing, and my emails to him were bouncing back undeliverable. Since I knew him from the board, I PMd him to let him know. Turns out it was something about his hosting and IP that was causing these sites to 404 from certain locations and not others, so he fixed it and I approved all his sites. If I hadn't known who he was, the sites would have been declined (and probably would've blacklisted him) after the email bounced back.

The moral of the story is that taking the time to be part of a community ALWAYS has tangible advantages, even if they're not obvious. We've got a good community here, many of us advertise this board on our submit pages, and those who choose to take part will always have a leg up over those who don't. There's only so much you can do for people |rasta|

[amadman]

Same here MadMax.

I have this right next to my submit form:

Wondering Why your site was not listed?
Check the guide lines below and if you still have questions then
You can ask me about it at Greenguyandjim.com.

With GGandjim linked to this thread:
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...threadid=12326

So I feel I have put the ball in the submitters court. Which I feel is
fair and would be more than happy with it if I was submitting
to my site. After all I like most other linklist owners submit sites too.

[krki]

I understand frustration of some people because rejection mails, and I understand some webmasters who don`t want to send that mails any more.
But all submitters must decide where they will submit their sites, check LL`s. If some LL didn`t list your sites don`t submit to that LL anymore even that LL send nice traffic. Use another LL or more.
I check all LL once in month and decide where I will submit my sites, I know that I sometimes make some stupid mistakes but we are just people and mistakes are for people. Sometimes my free sites I submit to just 20 LL which I know that will list me and some sites I submit to 100 LL and it`s sure that some LL will decline my site.
I notice that some LL owners have very, very stupid rules but that is their problem. I am not mad on some big LL (they list almost every my site) but I am mad on some little LL which send to me just a few visits in week and they behave like they send me 1000`s.
Now who will give me partner account

[msanchez]

well I wasnt going to put my 2c in but against my better judgement Ill type a little

I notice that some LL owners have very, very stupid rules but that is their problem. I am not mad on some big LL (they list almost every my site) but I am mad on some little LL which send to me just a few visits in week and they behave like they send me 1000`s.

I agree with this and it probably the most fustrating aspect of submitting for me. There is one list that I have more than 5 sites listed over variouse categories this month and how many visits have they sent? A whole 4 visitors all month lol, and of course they have the most byzantine rules Ive seen and reject for all sorts of reasons not listed in the "rules".

I guess my point is that LL owners and Submitters have a relationship, and if both sides try to make make it better for each other we will all win.

I like to get emails if I messed something up, but If I dont I just move on. Hell even if I do get a rejection email I dont change the site for 1 LL because the other 8 LL have accepted it and I dont want to go mess with the site and have it messed up with the other 8 LLs that origionally accepted it.

I just use that email for future sites so I dont do the same thing again.

In a perfect world we would all get rejection emails, and the submitters who just ignore them should be ignored themselves.

Cheers

[amadman]

I hope you guys are not refering to mine

I don't have much traffic for sure but I don't feel my
rules are to much over the top. Hopefully I am just
being paranoid again.