Internext/AEE passes anyone :) - AVN SUCKS!!!!!

[Linkster]

Gee that means we'll have the round bar to ourselves the night of the 8th

[Far-L]

There is no way to make everyone happy.

I like the Jan. Expo show being at the same time as CES though - good for biz, great for publicity, like the ability to check out the latest and greatest in software and hardware, etc.

Simply put there is no way AVN/Internext is going to make everyone happy. Remember - they also have to contend with competing against all the other shows that are going on during the year too - they don't do anything arbitrarily.

More importantly, I know from years of working with them - sometimes begrudgingly like many of you here now seem to be - that they are NOT the enemy. They are reasonable people. They do listen to feedback no matter how negative. To me, that is one hallmark of a good business which is why we have, do, and will continue to enjoy biz with them.

Rather than come across as defending them blindly, which I am sure many of you think i am doing - I urge you to follow the same lead we did and effect a positive change and get on the same page with them, no pun intended.

Thanks for hearing me out.

[Linkster]

Far-L I would tend to think that if AVN really wanted any feedback and discussion about change, they would have someone out in the WM "sphere" answering questions and holding meaningful debates - and after a few past attempts - someone that could actually effect changes that made sense.
While I understand Internext is a very small slice of what AVN does in real life, they chose to try to be the leader when it came to putting everyone on the "same pages"
Read their company mission for Internext: "Internext Expo - The largest event of its kind in the world, Internext Expo is THE forum to attend for all Webmasters and Internet professionals serious about the success of their online business." (highlights added)
Although it's obvious reading their online editions and even the print magazines that AVN is trying to pave the merging of other technologies with the internet street - where I think they have lost sight of their original mission with Internext is their belief (evidently) that all WMs out here are trying to branch out to all of these other models - and we all know that just isnt fact.
Their attempt to try to merge all of this is evident at the last few Internext shows from the types of exhibiters to the seminars to even the sponsors. I found it amazing talking to the people manning booths in Florida - half of them didnt even understand what a link list was, let alone what a webmaster involved in making sites does daily Alll they could tell you is that they had a website promoting their SMS, mobile, pod streaming or some new billing model - and these were half of the booths/reps that we ran into.
What seemed to be greatly lacking was actual webmaster information, sponsors, booths that used to be the mainstay of the floor.

Now add to that the confusion of other shows at the same time, prohibitive costs associated with attending "the forum for Webmasters" and all the other little things that people have brought up - and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out something is wrong and of course as mentioned - top it all off with an "appearance of non-concern" and it becomes easy to see why there are threads on every WM board out there talking about boycotting Florida last year - why the awards show for WMs isnt associated with this show and why the person running the Players ball cant get enough sponsors for his party.

So last thought would be - maybe AVN needs to get on the same page as the WMs - not the other way around?? Just my thoughts

[Greenguy]

Far-l - I do love you

CES has NOTHING to do with what we as webmasters do for a living. Sure, you can say that all this cell phone porn crap & iPod's video thing do touch a new side of our business, but the bottom line is that Apple will not have a booth at either event explaining how to sell porn vids to their consumers.

And I'd bet that the % of webmasters that will go to Vegas for Internext just because it's at the same time as CES is really small.

And we have tried to explain our side of things to an AVN employee when Aly (who I also love dearly) was running things. Peek at this thread:
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=17973

[RawAlex]

Linkster, you hit it again: AVN needs to run their shows to the benefit and to match the desires of webmasters. What we saw this past year in Miami with the "must have a badge to enter the hotel" certainly seemed to be more of an effort to squeeze money onto the bottom line than it was to fix any real issues that were outstanding. I understand that it was a result of a full hotel takeover and such, but the WAY it was approached was very difficult for many people to accept.

I think they realize that they got screwed on badges in Vegas last year, where most people couldn't get a badge, and many didn't even try. Most of the business got done in places that AVN couldn't charge for a badge, which is just not good for them.

The Venetian is a much better place for AVN to run a show. No a single real good place for a group of people to sit between the casino and the show floor - and it is a fuck of a long hallway. The mooching factor at the venetian will be much lower than it was at the Mandalay.

Running the show at better times of the year (miami about now, maybe Vegas is March?) would be much more condusive to the way we all do buisness. Interrupting holiday plans to scamper off to vegas for a show and to be forced to pay the absolute maximum rates for the whole year in vegas seems a little bit of a weird way to do business. I understand what it does for the AEE show... but we don't need to be there.

My bet? Next year it will be called the AEE Internext show and there will be no discussion of two seperate shows, just an area for internet people where the general public cannot access.

Alex

[Far-L]

Ok...

Going to respond to all of you in this reply...

1. AVN/Internext has tried reaching out, but you all have to admit that Aly took a beating, Tom Hymes got pounded on, everyone that has tried to have a discussion typically gets tarred and feathered.

2. I offer myself as the next in line for the punishment. I stand on both sides of the fence, as old school brick and mortar guy and web operation - so I humbly submit that I am a good person to stand in the middle and broker a peace.

3. Greenie (love ya too) please understand that I was just saying why I like being there during CES and not why anyone else SHOULD for any reason at all.

4. If you all have suggestions for panels then let me know now and I will do anything possible to make them happen. I want topics, speakers, ideas of any kind.

5. I will get feedback from Renee regarding dates and the what, where, why, how of it all so everyone has a better understanding.

6. I don't care what you do but anytime you try to please a majority then a minority is going to be pissed. Consequently, if the big sponsor programs are the ones paying for the booths and free booze then naturally they are going to be catered to in the other areas of the show as well. How many of you link list folks have ever bought a booth? That doesn't mean that your input should be ignored though and we all know that usually the traffic panels are the most heavily attended seminars. Conversely, that means LL and other related people should have a special place in a webmaster show, imo.

7. I have asked for and received special price considerations for amateurs that would not otherwise have been able to afford it so I know that it is not all about the money. There really is a catholic effort to make the benefits of attending available to all concerned.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Far-L

There is no way to make everyone happy.

Just one point. Does having Internext in Florida in August make anyone happy? Except AVN of course.

[Jim]

I remember before the hurricanes went crazy and they had internext in Florida in October...that was nice. It was cool in the north and almost perfect in Florida. I really can't remember when it used to be in Vegas so I can't really comment. But for the average webmaster to spend so much money just after Christmas is crazy. And everyone that goes to these shows sees them getting smaller and smaller. Why is that? Is it the time of year? Is it the ungodly prices? Or is it just not worth it anymore?

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Jim

Just one point. Does having Internext in Florida in August make anyone happy? Except AVN of course.

That is just one of the mysteries that I hope to solve...

I am not a fan of florida in august at all; everytime I see another sweaty picture of myself I pretty much want to puke but where do you think would be a good spot?

Reachable to the common webmaster? Affordable but nice - obviously the hotel airport best western in Seatac is not going to do, lol.

Gimme something to work with - I already got the dissatisfaction part down.

|Jim

[Ramster]

Originally Posted by Far-L

6. I don't care what you do but anytime you try to please a majority then a minority is going to be pissed. Consequently, if the big sponsor programs are the ones paying for the booths and free booze then naturally they are going to be catered to in the other areas of the show as well. How many of you link list folks have ever bought a booth? That doesn't mean that your input should be ignored though and we all know that usually the traffic panels are the most heavily attended seminars. Conversely, that means LL and other related people should have a special place in a webmaster show, imo.

What does this have to do with the dates of the show?

When the dates were announced on GFY and other boards, 95% of every webmaster said the same thing we are saying. This sucks! It is going to be expensive and way too busy.

And the sponsors want webmasters. They don't care that the CES is going on. Most of them (I'd assume) are glad it is "close to" the AEE show because it saves them travel time/costs coming back to attend but it will still save them if the show followed these shows and didn't run at the same time.

I understand what you are doing Far L and appreciate your postings. If you want suggestions for your boss then here is a legitimate one. From now on make the show like it was in the past. On different dates from the AEE. Just before or just after. Moving venues or wahtever is a stretch but just before or just after is not.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Ramster

What does this have to do with the dates of the show?

When the dates were announced on GFY and other boards, 95% of every webmaster said the same thing we are saying. This sucks! It is going to be expensive and way too busy.

And the sponsors want webmasters. They don't care that the CES is going on. Most of them (I'd assume) are glad it is "close to" the AEE show because it saves them travel time/costs coming back to attend but it will still save them if the show followed these shows and didn't run at the same time.

I understand what you are doing Far L and appreciate your postings. If you want suggestions for your boss then here is a legitimate one. From now on make the show like it was in the past. On different dates from the AEE. Just before or just after. Moving venues or wahtever is a stretch but just before or just after is not.

AVN is not my boss... lol.

I am one of the owners of Homegrown Video/Xplor Media and New Destiny Internet Group.

I just like the folks at AVN and I am trying to foster a better relationship for all. The magazine and the shows have been good for biz for us so I am trying to do them a favor out of appreciation.

This year the shows were combined for reasons beyond their control. It won't be like that in the future.

What month and place do you suggest?

[Linkster]

Far-L I applaud that you take it upon yourself to act as a go-between. I tend to disagree that Aly really got tarred and feathered other than by people that dont go to the shows and really were just venting. Most of us respect what she was trying to do and understood fully (I think) that she also was not AVN - but just someone trying to get comments and suggestions and taking them back to AVN.
I remember a discussion on another board with her that evolved into some things actually being accomplished, however I think the impression everyone took away was that her hands were tied from the AVN side and that most of the input she gave them just bounced off.

I also understand that the large sponsors are the people that should be catered to - which is why I've tried to make a point of describing the major changes we have witnessed over the last two years with huge losses of large sponsors - they just aren't sponsoring the show anymore. The first question that pops up when I notice things like that is - why? Why in the world would a major sponsor send one rep - with no booth on the floor - to walk the halls trying to garner business. If it were just one I'd say - well they are having hard times and couldn't justify the expense. However, when it involves at least 20 of the top sponsors, that is an indication of a much larger problem. This is not conjecture, this is just observation of what companies are out there with affiliate programs that work with webmasters (at least in the LL and TGP world of traffic) - and how many of the top 20 actually are visible on the floor of the show. My count at the last show was very few - and the largest of the aff. programs had maybe one rep if you could find them, and sometimes two.

The price of the show (the tickets themselves) are probably not a real big point of contention with most people - I also go to mainstream conventions and know the inflate prices you have to pay for those That said, the cost of going to these shows is not about the price of the admission ticket - its the inflated prices that AVN negotiates for the hotel rooms, the inflated cost of everything presented at the show from food, coffee to the drink prices that get raised at the hotel bars. In Florida the bar prices for a well drink was from $8-$12 each - until the day after the show when they went back down to $3. God forbid if you wanted a call drink. In Vegas the hotel prices are at least double what they are the rest of the year - not counting the special discounts you can get at the Venetian if you register for a players card - I get offers all year - even Christmas holidays for under $80 a night for the same room Rose Travel gets for $200 (I guess towards the end when Rose negotiated another block it went up to $250). And most of the price is not due to CES - two years ago I paid 150 a night for the first 3 nights - the price then doubled for the last two nights when AEE started. And CES had been going on the whole time.
This is probably the major reason that most webmasters just cannot go to the shows - most of them cant put out $3k for a show that doesnt represent their business anymore.
Without getting into too much rambling - I agree with your idea about traffic producers having a part in the show (other than the same panel that happens every year) although I dont know exactly how to do it other than the way we have done it in the past having our own separate parties and get togethers that we kick in to sponsor ourselves.

The show is supposed to be designed with the webmasters in mind I would think? Like I said before, I agree about the sponsors having the big bennies - but shouldnt the sponsors be the webmaster program sponsors? I would recommend finding out why they wont sponsor anymore.

Last - this is billed as the premier show of the year for the webmaster community - so why have we taken the webmaster community awards away from the show? Doesn't make much sense as that was a highlight of the show and an opportunity for us to show our appreciation to those that stood out in our community.

[Linkster]

Originally Posted by Far-L

This year the shows were combined for reasons beyond their control. It won't be like that in the future.

What month and place do you suggest?

Unfortunately this discussion of dates and places comes up every year - and the reply is always the same - nothing. Suggestions are made and discussed, but no reply ever comes out - of course Im of the opinion that it never would change as I sure would set up a negotiated schedule quite a few years in advance and I would hope that AVN is smart enough to do the same.
So I dont think that this part of the discussion will go anywhere based on prior history

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Linkster

Unfortunately this discussion of dates and places comes up every year - and the reply is always the same - nothing. Suggestions are made and discussed, but no reply ever comes out - of course Im of the opinion that it never would change as I sure would set up a negotiated schedule quite a few years in advance and I would hope that AVN is smart enough to do the same.
So I dont think that this part of the discussion will go anywhere based on prior history

Agreed and thanks for your gracious and informed responses.

At least if you knew when those contracts could change you would have more to work with input-wise.

I am going to get as much feedback here as possible and set up a meeting with AVN/internext this week so give me about a week to get back with responses.

Until then, this input is incredibly useful.

[Greenguy]

I'm thinking that I might want to change the topic of the Radio Show tonight

Originally Posted by Far-L

1. AVN/Internext has tried reaching out, but you all have to admit that Aly took a beating, Tom Hymes got pounded on, everyone that has tried to have a discussion typically gets tarred and feathered.

I agree that they got pounded & I really did forget about why there was so much hatred towards AVN at them time, but now I remember:
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=17808
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=17640
You take those 2 threads into account with the thread on Miami's show & you can hopefully see why we had a bad taste in our mouths about AVN in general.

Plus you really do have to throw in there that a lot of the changes that AVN made for Miami were not told to anyone on this board before they went into place. Not that they have to answer to us for what policies they do & don't implement, but they also have to be able to accept the consequences of negative feedback when they put in what are silly ideas for the betterment of the convention.
- No one needs to fill out that long ass form to get a badge - name, address, URL & CC info is all that's really needed - you think they need to know how much I make? How many sites I have? Useless info that would be used to sell off mailing lists to other companies.
- Increased cost for wireless throughout the hotel - is there really a need to be able to surf in the lobby when your room is a 30 second elevator ride away?
- $250 for the only option of an all access badge for seminars that I would not being going to. If anything, the 2 separate badge prices - floor & floor/seminar - should have never been done away with. If they're not making money with the seminars, then don't offer them. And I really can't see them loosing money with the seminars, as I've spoken on a panel in Vegas & all I got was a badge - no money. (oddly enough, I've not been asked back - LOL)
- It was announced that the hotel only going to be porn people this past year - but that policy had been in place for the 3 years prior, so them using that to justify a price increase is ridiculous.
- I would have spent $3000 on hotel, airfare & the badge before I left the house for Miami - sure, I would have gotten a free breakfast & lunch a couple of the days I was there, but I can eat cereal & fruit at home

Originally Posted by Far-L

6. I don't care what you do but anytime you try to please a majority then a minority is going to be pissed. Consequently, if the big sponsor programs are the ones paying for the booths and free booze then naturally they are going to be catered to in the other areas of the show as well. How many of you link list folks have ever bought a booth? That doesn't mean that your input should be ignored though and we all know that usually the traffic panels are the most heavily attended seminars. Conversely, that means LL and other related people should have a special place in a webmaster show, imo.

1st off, we not all Link List people here - there are quite a few of us that run Link Lists & since this is pretty much the only board that caters to Link Lists, I can see why we are looked at in that light, but I don't really consider myself just a Link List owner - I wear many hats & so do all the Link List owners here on the board

Now, I want you to think back to the last 4 or 5 conventions - Vegas & Miami - and think about the parties that you've gone to & tell me how many parties you got into with just the AVN badge. I can't think of a party that I've been to in the last 3 years that I got into with just the badge - you need a pass or a VIP pass or a VIP VIP pass And that's the way it should be! Would you really want to throw a party for people that do no promote Home Grown? Let everyone & their brother into the party to eat & drink on your tab? Sponsors should use parties to take care of those that promote them, and they are doing that by issuing passes to who they want to attend.

As far as the booths, I've never had one that was my own, but I've worked them for Condom/Netpond & Adult Netsurprise & I can honestly say that no one joined either board because of what me & my fellow webmasters were doing there at the booth. Plus working the booth sucks ass

Who was the big sponsor at Vegas in Jan? Talk of the town for about 2-3 weeks after? You probably don't remember, because from what I've heard, they blew most of their money on the booth & I haven't seen a check from them in months.

No one cares anymore who has the biggest booth & the show floor has been shrinking the past few years because sponsors know this.

2 years ago in Vegas all I wanted to do was get a hospitality suite for board members to hang at, have a couple of cocktails & shoot the shit. I could not get my own suite because I did not have a booth on the floor. I'm not even talking about a party that would have been advertised to the masses - I could not get a suite to hold a private party because I did not have a booth.

Originally Posted by Far-L

7. I have asked for and received special price considerations for amateurs that would not otherwise have been able to afford it so I know that it is not all about the money. There really is a catholic effort to make the benefits of attending available to all concerned.

That's great - but why is there this hierarchy in the 1st place? Why not make it affordable for everyone & not just a discount when you beg them to make things a little less for the average everyday webmaster?

Wanna come on the Radio Show tonight? (8-9 PM EST) We do have 2 other topics that we need to get taken care of on the show, but we can squeeze you in. Of maybe next show (Nov 29th as we're going to be on hiatus for 2 weeks due to the schedule of the Buffalo Sabres)

[docholly]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

$250 a night for harrahs? OMFG that is silly.

Alex

CES Rates at Harrahs

[Greenguy]

After reading you're last post, let's shoot for you coming on the air with us Nov 29th after you've had a chance to talk to AVN about this stuff

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

After reading you're last post, let's shoot for you coming on the air with us Nov 29th after you've had a chance to talk to AVN about this stuff

Thanks for the invite! Definitely count me in - I will see if I can get someone from Internext there to represent as well.

[Greenguy]

You assume I can get more than one person on the line at the same time - remember, I'm a lowly webmaster that only has 3-way calling

[Far-L]

Ok so far - in my mind, tell me if I am offbase - the landscape of this discussion lays out like this:

1. Cheaper prices, food, booths, rooms, etc.

2. Better communication with coordinators

3. Location

4. Proximity to other events

5. Access to sponsor events

6. seminars, roundtables, etc.

[Greenguy]

I'd just let them read this thread & the other one & let them make their own decisions

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You assume I can get more than one person on the line at the same time - remember, I'm a lowly webmaster that only has 3-way calling

lol, sorry... I know you wear a bunch of hats so I guess I just figured that you had a bunch of phone lines running around for each - you know like batman or get smart style...

If it is technically possible I could potentially offer our conf. line as a resource. wdyt?

[Linkster]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

As far as the booths, I've never had one that was my own, but I've worked them for Condom/Netpond & Adult Netsurprise & I can honestly say that no one joined either board because of what me & my fellow webmasters were doing there at the booth. Plus working the booth sucks ass

That's great - but why is there this hierarchy in the 1st place? Why not make it affordable for everyone & not just a discount when you beg them to make things a little less for the average everyday webmaster?

Two great points GG - although on that first one keep in mind that when we were working the booth the only one that didnt have a hangover was MML

The hierarchy question is a great one - it was one of the points brought up right before the last Miami show as well due to the standard rate for everyone affecting the ability of sponsors bringing in "talent" - I believe that Aly tried to intercede with AVN on that question however I have no idea what ever happened - if I remember correctly some arrangement was made for the local hires to get in cheaper for specific hours during the day - remember you had to have a badge to get into the hotel for that show.

If AVN does "negotiate" rates for people that would greatly disappoint me as that would be a slap in the face to those webmasters that cant afford to go to their convention.

[MrMaryLou]

Originally Posted by Linkster

Two great points GG - although on that first one keep in mind that when we were working the booth the only one that didnt have a hangover was MML

Ok I am a sissy LOL I was too busy with boob hats

[Ramster]

Inform AVN that not all people in this biz make major bling each month. There are many webmasters that could benefit from going to a show and many sponsors that could benefit from seeing these webmasters (one of them could be the next 'who's who'). But a webmaster making a living at $2K-$5K/month really cannot afford to drop a lot of cash on going to Vegas.