Oldschool reinvented noob got a few questions!

JD · 2006-11-13, 07:54 PM

Me Exotic

Hey man, yeh, I heard about those damn CJ sites too, looked into them for a week or so and heard from people what they were making on them, didnt go through fully though, so lost out there!!

Know what you mean with the money and the "olds", used to love making more than my father in law, he works at a factory and pulls a grand a week (aust money) and I used to just kill him with what I used to make. NOW I would be content with making what he does. Fuck its hard getting your feet again, I dont care what anyone says, its still really hard to get yourself doing something that makes money, so many more sponsors these days probably makes it harder in a way as its too confusing, which one to pick, as basically they all kick ass nearly, wilth the latest sites, best promos and shit.

Sorry to hear about your health problems, we have great free health services here in Australia and you dont need private health cover here, so lucky in that respect.

So 10 months ago yeh? Do you do lots of different sponsors? Lots of mirror sites with different link lists? doing 5 or more sales a day now I guess you would be after 10 months?

Know what you mean with the galleries, still a lot saying they make good income with them, its a lot harder imo to make money with gals as theres so much stuff out there. I guess what I have learnt now is consistency is key, gotta keep on going. Still, I'm the type of person that gets sick of doing the same stuff over and over, so I'm just having a hard time getting up and doing the same stuff, but at the same time, I'm always thinking, should I switch sponsors, change niches, and what about all these damn LL that I arent even submitting to, you cant do everything!!! Aghhhhhh, its painful but I have to try to move through the pain barrier, I just want 10 sales a day, thats my ambition for after a year of doing free sites, if I could get it to say 5 sales a day by 6 month mark it will give me the motivation I need to keep at it.

I get tired thinking about it, lol, Im a lazy bastard at the best of times too, so it will be a challenge...................

back to it!

Mr Exotic · 2006-11-14, 12:49 AM

As far as submitting, mirrors, and linklists go is probably where I have made a big mistake. Funny that you ask that question because today I just compiled a new submit list that is 54 link lists long, up until now I have only been submitting to 12-15 of the biggest link lists, I do get basically every site listed everywhere I submit, but I know I have left a ton of traffic and sales out by going that route. Another thing that I have discovered and have been advised on by a good friend who really knows his SE stuff is that SE traffic for a new domain can take a very very long time to get, as I am now finding out. And that SE traffic is a obviously a pretty big thing, thats why this is something that you have to really keep after for the long haul, not only do you get more SE traffic as you keep building and building but the linklist traffic builds up obviously as well especially at link lists like Green Guy's where the sites get rotated and not listed in order that they were submitted.

As far as the money and sales go, haha, thats definitely a tricky question. That is another place I know I have made a mistake, a mistake that I think I have just very recently fixed, at least for the future when I pick new sites to promote. I have built and submitted tons of free sites for paysites that just flat out laid a huge pile of shit conversion wise and retention wise on revshare. There are days that I made 5 sales off my free sites, but not as many as I would like quite honestly, had I not picked so many paysites that did so shitty I do think there is a very good chance that I would be at 5 sales a day for an average, but there is no way to really tell, other than to keep building and going on from what I have learned. I really think now that if I had been submitting to more link lists and picked better sites I could be making more than double what I am making now, if not more than that. Now that its getting to be close to a year that I have been doing this I definitely have learned a ton and see that I have made a lot of mistakes along the way, only thing I can do is continue and not make the same mistakes again.

One bad thing that goes along with free sites is that it is such a long term thing (but this ultimately is the best thing about it, haha go figure) and it really takes a long time to see how something is gonna do for you since it takes so long to build up enough traffic to really gauge something on. But really I think my learning curve goes along with what many webmasters have told me or me reading what they have said. The first year is the learning year, the second year is the year where you have corrected your mistakes and you oughta really be getting somewhere by the end of your second year, and in the 3rd year you oughta be rolling in the dough, hahaha (at least that is my goal). Of course rolling in the dough for me may not even pay another person's living expenses. But what you said about 10 sales a day, that is pretty much the area I would like to be in as well as thats gonna end up being over 100 grand a year. Another thing to keep in mind is that its just not about just the actual free sites, but its making those free sites all work together as one and to form one big empire for yourself (someone could probably write a book on that, haha).

When I first started doing free sites I had made a promise to myself to stick with a three year plan and no matter what not to give up on it because I have heard so many times that it is such a long term thing and the biggest mistake people make to to give up on them before they even give them a chance. So no matter what I am gonna be here doing free sites until Jan 20th of 2008 and hopefully by then it will have all been worth it and I will have one hell of an adult empire built up for myself and have an excellent long term and steady income for me and my family.

Geez, haha just realized this is turning into a long as hell post, I'll shut up now.

JD · 2006-11-14, 06:33 AM

Hey no need to shut up, you make great sense and write well!!

You know I was making free sites in 98-99? What a dumbass for not continuing on, at least 1 site a day, or hell, 1 a week, would have had me around 2,500 or free sites all with long going SE traffic, LOL. Oh well, I thought I was onto a good thing and kept doing that, thats what we do I spose, keep onto a good thing. I should have learnt something after all this time, well I spose I learn a few things, but I think to myself I havent really learned anything. ALthough I know how to make clean ok sites, I find it hard to write all the damn selling text for todays sites, what are we sposed to tell the surfer, I let the banners speak, and just put a few lines in for the SE's and so the surfers can see the text link in case the banners dont load.

I changed my recips today to 3 x 16 LL tables, so 48 sites at the moment. But I really need 100 or so. I find it so much work just to do those ones. I use form filling sw of course, but doing the mirrors and stuff, its pretty mind numbing, I applaud the free site webmasters, its not easy work I dont think anyway. But its better than working for some other bloke ) so I have to stamp that on my forehead more.

Sponsors, UGHHH, your reality is my nightmare then! I dont want that to happen, so this much I have learned, I check out the sites members area by hand and see whats there to keep the surfer, and I check out stats like gg AND hoes etc and see what sponsors do best, and its pretty sad news there these days, lol, lots of 1:1500 conversions, that sucks, but sign of the times maybe, todays LL conversions are yesterdays gallery conversions! Thans for the heads up, I am gonna have to split these sites up with more sponsors, maybe 10 and alternate submissions, it till take longer to get signups to them but at least it will be more diverse.

I dont like the 3 year thing man, I want to get there in 1 year!!! Someone was saying on here they were getting a sale per day after a month subbing! That would be nice. Everything varies I spose. Oh well, another day another site tomorrow. ANd what about multiple submissions, I notice theres only a handful of LL that state just 1 site per day, so there is room to submit 3 or so sites a day to 100 link lists maybe, that would be large workload but faster results. ANyway, making me tired thinking about it!!

JD

Mr Exotic · 2006-11-14, 02:40 PM

Man I think we can relate on alot of things. Funny thing is how I got my very first start was with a babe/bikini site that was somewhat of a linklist, I didnt start my first site off thinking oh boy I am gonna put up a shitload of blind links and jerk traffic around to make some money, haha. I really had a good build up of bookmarkers and had a pretty big group of sites that was trading links with me, it really was kind of a link list pretty much. I had a top refferer table that I updated once a week, had a list of new sites on the main page that had been submitted to me thru out the week, and had a links page for all the other sites that didnt make the top refferer list. It wasnt of sites that were free sites as we know them now, but still pretty much the same thing. I often wonder how things would have gone if I had got turned onto the real link lists and free sites instead of the evil CJ sites. I was young and dumb and took my 10-12k/day of bookmarker/quality link trade traffic and turned that into over 100k/day of CJ traffic to make some quick money. Hell if I had a clue as to how to sale a site back then instead of just plastering up a couple banners I would have been making decent money off my little quality site, and who knows where that could have lead to.

My free sites probably have more text on them than just about anyone, hoping that down the road that will help me out alot with SE traffic, along with trying to sale the site. I kind of look at my free sites as blog posts in some kind of way, haha. I try to write a good size paragraph on each page of the site, sometimes I about go crazy trying to think of new things to say, and often I am saying pretty much the same thing but worded in a different way trying to work the different keywords in for that particular site.

You are definitely on to something by going by sites that post their sponsor stats. That is one of the first things I use when checking out new paysites to promote now and so far so good. When I first started I just went by what looked good and if I thought that program was good either by word of mouth or by my past experiences with them, but as I soon found out even some of the best programs out there have sites that will convert worse than 1:3000. Then I took a good look at Greenies latest stats update and sure enough the sites that sucked donkey dick for me, sucked ass as well for him. And the sites that I was happy with were doing good for him too.

As far as getting 1 sale a day just after submitting for 3 weeks, I suppose its possible if everything went perfect, but not likely. I am not sure if it was this thread or another but I think you said something about getting a sale every 3 days after a month and that is pretty much where I was my first month. The second month was about twice as good, and the third month I was pretty close to a sale a day maybe a bit better. I was somewhat lucky because 3 of 4 sites I first started off with ended up doing pretty good, and even the 4th wasnt too awfully bad. But then is where I made my mistakes, the next string of sites I started promoting sucked and things really leveled off for a while, and the growth slowed down quite a bit. But now that I am picking better sites to promote I am seeing pretty good conversions so hopefully I can get back to growing quickly again.

Today was the first day I submitted to 54 (18x3) link lists after only doing around 12-15 since I started, my first experience making mirrors, talk about a pain in the ass, haha. Not to mention all these crazy little link lists and figuring out all their different forms for the first time. What pissed me off the most was these god damn word of the day things. One site I know I typed it right and time after time it said I was wrong, so fuck it that site is losing my submits, haha. My mind is pretty numb after the whole ordeal.

About submitting more than 1 site a day to the lists that allow it, ya I suppose you could, but from what I usually notice is that 9 times out of 10 the sites that allow multiple submissions are new ones that are just trying to fill out their categories and alot of times they end up going to only 1 submit a day. I know for me there just is not enough time to try and do that and I honestly dont think my mind could take it, haha. My guess is that in the end it probably wouldnt be worth the extra effort since to do it right you would need to put just as much effort into each of those extra sites as you do for the sites that get submitted to the big boys only to be lucky to have each site get 1/20th of the traffic (thats just guess on the traffic) per site.

JD · 2006-11-14, 10:27 PM

Hey man )

Do you use roboform, god made roboform I think, if I could work out ways to make things as streamlined as that program is I would be a very happy man. With you 54 recips, what I do is just use the anchor link text thta each site wants, so I dont have all these stupid looking buttons and weird links everywhere, I just find out what anchor text they want and use that in my custom table. I imagine you also have the tables lined up in your dreamweaver or whatever so you just click on each one to submit it? I thought about using a submitting program, not to auto submit, but to bring up all the submit urls and fill the forms so I could look through them. I should spend more time working on that, as that would probably cut some more time down as well. Wish the sites would make themselves some times! Well back to it I spose, amazing how damn fast the days fly past. No point in worrying about what could have happened in the past, it kills me to think about it, LOL.. At least these great link lists are still around today, and they seem to be reallly cool and nice owners really. I understand the process etc. and whats involved, sometimes its hard to remember what to do next though. Keeping motivated, especially when I got two kids I always want to go play with sucks, but I have to keep the work going to try to get back to some sort of a living income again, what hard work, need to fast forward 6 months or a year, LOL.
cya

JD

Mr Exotic · 2006-11-15, 01:16 PM

Yep I use robo form and I use custom recips as well just like the way you said.

I have two little ones too, haha. My daughter is 3 and my son turns 2 on Saturday. I have my hands pretty full with the home life, my wife works a "real world job" and while she's at work the kids are either at my mom and dad's or at her mom's so I can get some work done. When the wife and kids get home I try as hard as possible not to work, sometimes after everyone goes to bed I will get some work done, but I try to avoid that as often as possible because then I find myself up until 4 in the morning and not waking up until late and then the wife and kids get home before I have a chance to get much done and it throws my whole schedule off.

JD · 2006-11-15, 06:04 PM

seems we have mucho in common lol, talk about schedules being messed up, story of my life, its hard with the kids as I want to spend as much time as possible with them, and I dont regret playing with them in their younger years as they are only young once, you know, but have to at least try to produce some income as well, I should send the wife out to work, I will if I dont make money, LOL
hit me up some time on the ole icq
5 2 1 1 0 2 8 3
cheers!

2006-11-14, 12:49 AM	#2
Mr Exotic rifuckingdiculous Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Cornfield in Indiana Posts: 532	As far as submitting, mirrors, and linklists go is probably where I have made a big mistake. Funny that you ask that question because today I just compiled a new submit list that is 54 link lists long, up until now I have only been submitting to 12-15 of the biggest link lists, I do get basically every site listed everywhere I submit, but I know I have left a ton of traffic and sales out by going that route. Another thing that I have discovered and have been advised on by a good friend who really knows his SE stuff is that SE traffic for a new domain can take a very very long time to get, as I am now finding out. And that SE traffic is a obviously a pretty big thing, thats why this is something that you have to really keep after for the long haul, not only do you get more SE traffic as you keep building and building but the linklist traffic builds up obviously as well especially at link lists like Green Guy's where the sites get rotated and not listed in order that they were submitted. As far as the money and sales go, haha, thats definitely a tricky question. That is another place I know I have made a mistake, a mistake that I think I have just very recently fixed, at least for the future when I pick new sites to promote. I have built and submitted tons of free sites for paysites that just flat out laid a huge pile of shit conversion wise and retention wise on revshare. There are days that I made 5 sales off my free sites, but not as many as I would like quite honestly, had I not picked so many paysites that did so shitty I do think there is a very good chance that I would be at 5 sales a day for an average, but there is no way to really tell, other than to keep building and going on from what I have learned. I really think now that if I had been submitting to more link lists and picked better sites I could be making more than double what I am making now, if not more than that. Now that its getting to be close to a year that I have been doing this I definitely have learned a ton and see that I have made a lot of mistakes along the way, only thing I can do is continue and not make the same mistakes again. One bad thing that goes along with free sites is that it is such a long term thing (but this ultimately is the best thing about it, haha go figure) and it really takes a long time to see how something is gonna do for you since it takes so long to build up enough traffic to really gauge something on. But really I think my learning curve goes along with what many webmasters have told me or me reading what they have said. The first year is the learning year, the second year is the year where you have corrected your mistakes and you oughta really be getting somewhere by the end of your second year, and in the 3rd year you oughta be rolling in the dough, hahaha (at least that is my goal). Of course rolling in the dough for me may not even pay another person's living expenses. But what you said about 10 sales a day, that is pretty much the area I would like to be in as well as thats gonna end up being over 100 grand a year. Another thing to keep in mind is that its just not about just the actual free sites, but its making those free sites all work together as one and to form one big empire for yourself (someone could probably write a book on that, haha). When I first started doing free sites I had made a promise to myself to stick with a three year plan and no matter what not to give up on it because I have heard so many times that it is such a long term thing and the biggest mistake people make to to give up on them before they even give them a chance. So no matter what I am gonna be here doing free sites until Jan 20th of 2008 and hopefully by then it will have all been worth it and I will have one hell of an adult empire built up for myself and have an excellent long term and steady income for me and my family. Geez, haha just realized this is turning into a long as hell post, I'll shut up now. __________________ Submit Free Sites/Galleries

2006-11-14, 02:40 PM	#4
Mr Exotic rifuckingdiculous Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Cornfield in Indiana Posts: 532	Man I think we can relate on alot of things. Funny thing is how I got my very first start was with a babe/bikini site that was somewhat of a linklist, I didnt start my first site off thinking oh boy I am gonna put up a shitload of blind links and jerk traffic around to make some money, haha. I really had a good build up of bookmarkers and had a pretty big group of sites that was trading links with me, it really was kind of a link list pretty much. I had a top refferer table that I updated once a week, had a list of new sites on the main page that had been submitted to me thru out the week, and had a links page for all the other sites that didnt make the top refferer list. It wasnt of sites that were free sites as we know them now, but still pretty much the same thing. I often wonder how things would have gone if I had got turned onto the real link lists and free sites instead of the evil CJ sites. I was young and dumb and took my 10-12k/day of bookmarker/quality link trade traffic and turned that into over 100k/day of CJ traffic to make some quick money. Hell if I had a clue as to how to sale a site back then instead of just plastering up a couple banners I would have been making decent money off my little quality site, and who knows where that could have lead to. My free sites probably have more text on them than just about anyone, hoping that down the road that will help me out alot with SE traffic, along with trying to sale the site. I kind of look at my free sites as blog posts in some kind of way, haha. I try to write a good size paragraph on each page of the site, sometimes I about go crazy trying to think of new things to say, and often I am saying pretty much the same thing but worded in a different way trying to work the different keywords in for that particular site. You are definitely on to something by going by sites that post their sponsor stats. That is one of the first things I use when checking out new paysites to promote now and so far so good. When I first started I just went by what looked good and if I thought that program was good either by word of mouth or by my past experiences with them, but as I soon found out even some of the best programs out there have sites that will convert worse than 1:3000. Then I took a good look at Greenies latest stats update and sure enough the sites that sucked donkey dick for me, sucked ass as well for him. And the sites that I was happy with were doing good for him too. As far as getting 1 sale a day just after submitting for 3 weeks, I suppose its possible if everything went perfect, but not likely. I am not sure if it was this thread or another but I think you said something about getting a sale every 3 days after a month and that is pretty much where I was my first month. The second month was about twice as good, and the third month I was pretty close to a sale a day maybe a bit better. I was somewhat lucky because 3 of 4 sites I first started off with ended up doing pretty good, and even the 4th wasnt too awfully bad. But then is where I made my mistakes, the next string of sites I started promoting sucked and things really leveled off for a while, and the growth slowed down quite a bit. But now that I am picking better sites to promote I am seeing pretty good conversions so hopefully I can get back to growing quickly again. Today was the first day I submitted to 54 (18x3) link lists after only doing around 12-15 since I started, my first experience making mirrors, talk about a pain in the ass, haha. Not to mention all these crazy little link lists and figuring out all their different forms for the first time. What pissed me off the most was these god damn word of the day things. One site I know I typed it right and time after time it said I was wrong, so fuck it that site is losing my submits, haha. My mind is pretty numb after the whole ordeal. About submitting more than 1 site a day to the lists that allow it, ya I suppose you could, but from what I usually notice is that 9 times out of 10 the sites that allow multiple submissions are new ones that are just trying to fill out their categories and alot of times they end up going to only 1 submit a day. I know for me there just is not enough time to try and do that and I honestly dont think my mind could take it, haha. My guess is that in the end it probably wouldnt be worth the extra effort since to do it right you would need to put just as much effort into each of those extra sites as you do for the sites that get submitted to the big boys only to be lucky to have each site get 1/20th of the traffic (thats just guess on the traffic) per site. __________________ Submit Free Sites/Galleries Last edited by Mr Exotic; 2006-11-14 at 02:44 PM..

2006-11-15, 01:16 PM	#6
Mr Exotic rifuckingdiculous Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Cornfield in Indiana Posts: 532	Yep I use robo form and I use custom recips as well just like the way you said. I have two little ones too, haha. My daughter is 3 and my son turns 2 on Saturday. I have my hands pretty full with the home life, my wife works a "real world job" and while she's at work the kids are either at my mom and dad's or at her mom's so I can get some work done. When the wife and kids get home I try as hard as possible not to work, sometimes after everyone goes to bed I will get some work done, but I try to avoid that as often as possible because then I find myself up until 4 in the morning and not waking up until late and then the wife and kids get home before I have a chance to get much done and it throws my whole schedule off. __________________ Submit Free Sites/Galleries

2006-11-13, 07:54 PM	#1
JD Lord help me, I'm just not that bright Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 107	Me Exotic Hey man, yeh, I heard about those damn CJ sites too, looked into them for a week or so and heard from people what they were making on them, didnt go through fully though, so lost out there!! Know what you mean with the money and the "olds", used to love making more than my father in law, he works at a factory and pulls a grand a week (aust money) and I used to just kill him with what I used to make. NOW I would be content with making what he does. Fuck its hard getting your feet again, I dont care what anyone says, its still really hard to get yourself doing something that makes money, so many more sponsors these days probably makes it harder in a way as its too confusing, which one to pick, as basically they all kick ass nearly, wilth the latest sites, best promos and shit. Sorry to hear about your health problems, we have great free health services here in Australia and you dont need private health cover here, so lucky in that respect. So 10 months ago yeh? Do you do lots of different sponsors? Lots of mirror sites with different link lists? doing 5 or more sales a day now I guess you would be after 10 months? Know what you mean with the galleries, still a lot saying they make good income with them, its a lot harder imo to make money with gals as theres so much stuff out there. I guess what I have learnt now is consistency is key, gotta keep on going. Still, I'm the type of person that gets sick of doing the same stuff over and over, so I'm just having a hard time getting up and doing the same stuff, but at the same time, I'm always thinking, should I switch sponsors, change niches, and what about all these damn LL that I arent even submitting to, you cant do everything!!! Aghhhhhh, its painful but I have to try to move through the pain barrier, I just want 10 sales a day, thats my ambition for after a year of doing free sites, if I could get it to say 5 sales a day by 6 month mark it will give me the motivation I need to keep at it. I get tired thinking about it, lol, Im a lazy bastard at the best of times too, so it will be a challenge................... back to it!

2006-11-14, 06:33 AM	#3
JD Lord help me, I'm just not that bright Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 107	Hey no need to shut up, you make great sense and write well!! You know I was making free sites in 98-99? What a dumbass for not continuing on, at least 1 site a day, or hell, 1 a week, would have had me around 2,500 or free sites all with long going SE traffic, LOL. Oh well, I thought I was onto a good thing and kept doing that, thats what we do I spose, keep onto a good thing. I should have learnt something after all this time, well I spose I learn a few things, but I think to myself I havent really learned anything. ALthough I know how to make clean ok sites, I find it hard to write all the damn selling text for todays sites, what are we sposed to tell the surfer, I let the banners speak, and just put a few lines in for the SE's and so the surfers can see the text link in case the banners dont load. I changed my recips today to 3 x 16 LL tables, so 48 sites at the moment. But I really need 100 or so. I find it so much work just to do those ones. I use form filling sw of course, but doing the mirrors and stuff, its pretty mind numbing, I applaud the free site webmasters, its not easy work I dont think anyway. But its better than working for some other bloke ) so I have to stamp that on my forehead more. Sponsors, UGHHH, your reality is my nightmare then! I dont want that to happen, so this much I have learned, I check out the sites members area by hand and see whats there to keep the surfer, and I check out stats like gg AND hoes etc and see what sponsors do best, and its pretty sad news there these days, lol, lots of 1:1500 conversions, that sucks, but sign of the times maybe, todays LL conversions are yesterdays gallery conversions! Thans for the heads up, I am gonna have to split these sites up with more sponsors, maybe 10 and alternate submissions, it till take longer to get signups to them but at least it will be more diverse. I dont like the 3 year thing man, I want to get there in 1 year!!! Someone was saying on here they were getting a sale per day after a month subbing! That would be nice. Everything varies I spose. Oh well, another day another site tomorrow. ANd what about multiple submissions, I notice theres only a handful of LL that state just 1 site per day, so there is room to submit 3 or so sites a day to 100 link lists maybe, that would be large workload but faster results. ANyway, making me tired thinking about it!! JD

2006-11-14, 10:27 PM	#5
JD Lord help me, I'm just not that bright Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 107	Hey man ) Do you use roboform, god made roboform I think, if I could work out ways to make things as streamlined as that program is I would be a very happy man. With you 54 recips, what I do is just use the anchor link text thta each site wants, so I dont have all these stupid looking buttons and weird links everywhere, I just find out what anchor text they want and use that in my custom table. I imagine you also have the tables lined up in your dreamweaver or whatever so you just click on each one to submit it? I thought about using a submitting program, not to auto submit, but to bring up all the submit urls and fill the forms so I could look through them. I should spend more time working on that, as that would probably cut some more time down as well. Wish the sites would make themselves some times! Well back to it I spose, amazing how damn fast the days fly past. No point in worrying about what could have happened in the past, it kills me to think about it, LOL.. At least these great link lists are still around today, and they seem to be reallly cool and nice owners really. I understand the process etc. and whats involved, sometimes its hard to remember what to do next though. Keeping motivated, especially when I got two kids I always want to go play with sucks, but I have to keep the work going to try to get back to some sort of a living income again, what hard work, need to fast forward 6 months or a year, LOL. cya JD

2006-11-15, 06:04 PM	#7
JD Lord help me, I'm just not that bright Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 107	seems we have mucho in common lol, talk about schedules being messed up, story of my life, its hard with the kids as I want to spend as much time as possible with them, and I dont regret playing with them in their younger years as they are only young once, you know, but have to at least try to produce some income as well, I should send the wife out to work, I will if I dont make money, LOL hit me up some time on the ole icq 5 2 1 1 0 2 8 3 cheers!